I’m a 2018 grad who has been clerking in a criminal trial division for eleven months. I never wanted to do litigation and took this position mainly because I had nothing post-bar lined up. With that said, I have an interview with a small firm (ten attorneys) for an opening for a real estate transactions associate. I have been focused on real estate since I wanted to go to law school (my dad is a general contractor and I grew up around development, etc.). I summered at a regional mid-sized firm back home (1800 miles away) and got my first opportunity to do some real estate law, primarily assisting in the acquisition of a commercial property and drafting a commercial lease agreement. I really enjoyed it far more than any of the litigation stuff I have done.
But, I am looking for some advice on how to prep for this interview. I’ve been on a least ten interviews in the past year, some reaching late rounds of interviews, but nothing has panned out. This firm requested that candidates have some experience with real estate deals, and what it seems like is they do a lot of acquisition/sale work. While I only have about ten weeks of summer associate experience, (1) how can I put my best foot forward in this interview, and (2) what traits/qualities are hiring partners looking for in young transaction-based associates?
Any tips or general suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have another interview this week with a city attorney’s office doing what I think would be land use/zoning, and general municipality law, etc., which I also enjoy and have some experience in. So things are absolutely looking up, but I really need to come into both of these interviews prepped and polished.
UPDATE:
After exactly one year of clerking, countless job applications, and over a dozen interviews, I received an offer at my dream job—a small, 8 person firm that specializes in commercial real estate. I had two in-person interviews and just received an offer over the phone this morning. I am beyond stoked right now. I turned down one offer at a firm that wasn’t the right fit, and I’m very glad that I did.
Thank you to everyone here who provided fantastic advice and insight!
Highlight soft areas where you have shown interest in this area of law. Like its stupid, but if you want to get into municipality law, have you sat in on municipality / city planning meetings. This just shows interest.
Do you know who you are meeting with? If so research the hell out of them. Have they been published recently, what are their stances on various issues, do they have any recent cases/things that are in the public. Once again this shows interest.
We generally hire younger associated based on:
A) grades/school/other “hard factors”, (things you cant change now)
B) if they have shown secondary interest in the firm (why us, why is our patent firm different than the other 100 in the city. We know you just want to job. But even knowing our specific offices clients just shows interest. Maybe around 5% of people we interview know something about us that isnt on our website),
C) what do you know about me specifically. With the internet if you know the persons name, you can find out if they like sports, music, cases I have been apart of, my specific views on a lot of things.
D) if they have shown interest in our subject matter (blogs, school journals, if you are interviewing for a jobdealing with city municipality issues - have you sat in on city planning meetings, for younger students just taking part in something patent related, going to a trial about XYZ, just something other than "patent law is something I have always been passionate about! ).
How much is “potential to bring in business” a factor when looking at recent graduates? I am fairly personable, and I have contacted and had coffee/lunch with at least a dozen different real estate/land use attorneys in my market after moving here a year and a half ago.
Are you expecting the recent grads to already have contacts in the industry (other than other lawyers) or are you just looking at them with an eye towards, “yeah, he seems like once he gets his craft down, he seems like the kind of person to bring in new clients.” I feel like it’s more of a consideration the smaller the firm.
Do your research on the firm. What type of real estate transactions? Find out the types of deals, including a few specific examples. Learn about what they do? You need to have more info about the firm than what is found on their website or a NALP form. You need to be able to convince them that you’re interested in working for that particular firm and not just any run-of-the-mill firm that does real estate transactional work.
I always ask in an interview why the candidate is interested in our firm. I tend to lose interest when all they can say is something parroted from our website, because it shows that the candidate didn’t do the homework and is likely shopping, looking for a job at any firm and not just our firm. Websites and NALP forms can be misleading. For example, we’re a full service firm, and the NALP form and possibly our website lists IP as something that we do. But if you were to scratch beneath the surface, the amount of IP work is insignificant compared to the other stuff we do. A candidate who doesn’t know that and who takes up time in the interview talking about how he or she is interested in IP won’t go far.
If you’re also interviewing with firm that does a lot of municipal law, you need to show an understanding of what that means as well as showing a sincere interest in muni law. Municipal law is probably more that 50% of what we do, and I’d be skeptical of someone with no related work experience, no relevant law school classes, and who’s recent work experience is clerking in a criminal trial division, unless we were looking for an litigation attorney to do code enforcement.
For the most part, there is zero expectations about someone new bringing in their own clients for younger people. We have had in the past people get hired because they had substantial connections to bringing in revenue, but that is not really something really considered.
At most firms, people want to employ someone that will make their lives easier (this is why people dont want to employ younger associates especially at smaller firms). As a new grad/new in the area of law, we will have to train you, and then in 2-3 years you will leave to a larger firm/start your own firm/leave.
Contacts in the industry is not really necessary. For us, if you have worked in the industry it helps, but that just shows that you are knowledgeable/shown secondary interest in the subject matter.
I recently interviewed approx 10 young attorneys to fill a position. I echo everything patentattorney says below and will add a couple “DON’Ts” to the list.
DO research each of the partners/potential interviewers. DON’T tell them you researched them then spout out the random factoids you know about them. It’s weird.
DON’T state that you are the only reason the prior firm made any money and that while they gave you a bonus that was way above market, it still wasn’t enough because without you the firm would be bankrupt.
DON’T talk about petty morale and HR issues with the prior employers. It shows you’re unable to stay above the fray
all that said, discuss your passion/reason for looking in real estate. Amplify your experience and your desire to build on that. I ended up hiring 2 associates that did not make the mistakes above and I think they’re happy.
Highlight soft areas where you have shown interest in this area of law. Like its stupid, but if you want to get into municipality law, have you sat in on municipality / city planning meetings. This just shows interest.
Do you know who you are meeting with? If so research the hell out of them. Have they been published recently, what are their stances on various issues, do they have any recent cases/things that are in the public. Once again this shows interest.
We generally hire younger associated based on:
A) grades/school/other “hard factors”, (things you cant change now)
B) if they have shown secondary interest in the firm (why us, why is our patent firm different than the other 100 in the city. We know you just want to job. But even knowing our specific offices clients just shows interest. Maybe around 5% of people we interview know something about us that isnt on our website),
C) what do you know about me specifically. With the internet if you know the persons name, you can find out if they like sports, music, cases I have been apart of, my specific views on a lot of things.
D) if they have shown interest in our subject matter (blogs, school journals, if you are interviewing for a jobdealing with city municipality issues - have you sat in on city planning meetings, for younger students just taking part in something patent related, going to a trial about XYZ, just something other than "patent law is something I have always been passionate about! ).
I’m not an attorney. I deal with corporate attorneys almost daily on corporate matters including real estate, contracts, HR issues, funding, shareholders, equity information, M&A, IP, etc. Given my experience working with law firms from the outside, here’s my advice:
Demonstrate the ability to make a meeting last just over the one hour mark to drive billing into the next micro-cycle (every 15 mins or 30 mins).
Always add other associates to any meetings or calls with clients. Billing one hour for 5 lawyers is far better than one for an hour.
Learn to use a Blackberry.
Practice dreaming about client problems so your smartphone app can detect the dream and bill the client accordingly.
Overbill regularly so you can knock 15% off the monthly bill on an initial complaint about billing - then you’re the hero.
Learn to say, “No need to worry at all”, “I’ll take care of it”, and, importantly, “Let me review/discuss with the partners and I’ll get back to you”.
Keep really good notes, but never share them with your client.
Pretend to be a great ‘listener’.
Wake up at random hours to send emails to clients.
//All good, but this one confuses me. I thought that it was the client sending 3 AM fire drill emails. //
Hardly. But if you dribble emails to clients in the middle of the night they’ll realize: 1) you’re working all night for them; and 2) billing 22 hrs in a day makes total sense.
They are hiring a person. Dress nice (conservative suit and tie), shine your shoes, have a fresh haircut and shave. Look people in the eye, have a firm handshake. Be polite, don’t stumble on your words, and thank them for their interest in you. A bit of dialogue can really help but no bullshit. That formula has been working for about 100 years.
//All good, but this one confuses me. I thought that it was the client sending 3 AM fire drill emails. //
Hardly. But if you dribble emails to clients in the middle of the night they’ll realize: 1) you’re working all night for them; and 2) billing 22 hrs in a day makes total sense.
You have much to learn. ; )
This is good, but waking up to do that is for amateurs. Draft a bunch of emails before you leave for your marathon drinking, hooker and blow session and set the email program to send out the batch at 3:45 a.m.
you’ve already gotten a lot of great advice. here is my two cents.
At a firm of that size, the partners will likely want to (1) see that you are smart; (2) see that you can speak fairly eloquently because you may be put in front of clients quite quickly; and (3) see that you are easy to get along with, hard working, able to work independently, willing to listen, etc.
Therefore, if it were me, i would ask questions that show you are genuinely interested in their practice – in addition to learning what interviewer does, go deeper and for the love of god, listen to their answers. ask follow up questions. let the interviewer do as much talking as you. make it a conversation. relax as much as possible. again, they want to see that you are someone that they could work with and be around, particularly in a firm that small. if you come across as being a dick or being selfish or self-centered or an asshole, they may want nothing to do with you. if it appears that you have a list of questions that you are just trying to get through, that isn’t a good look.
this just might be a personal thing, but keep your damn phone away the entire time you are at their firm.
and lastly, really try and enjoy the experience. smile. convince them that you are a cool person that they’d like to be around 40-70 hours per week.
“Therefore, if it were me, i would ask questions that show you are genuinely interested”
Golden advice right there. I’m not an attorney, but I’ve hired a lot of professional staff over the years, typically with M.S., sometimes Ph. D.
The ones that get the job are the ones that ask intelligent questions; these show a) intelligence (!), b) that the applicant cared enough to do a little research ahead of time to be able to ask good questions, and c) that the applicant is engaged with the interview team.
The interviewers may forgive a little nervousness; they may forgive a bit of naivete or ignorance. They will reward preparation, inquisitiveness, and tact.
At a firm of that size, the partners will likely want to (1) see that you are smart; (2) see that you can speak fairly eloquently because you may be put in front of clients quite quickly; and (3) see that you are easy to get along with, hard working, able to work independently, willing to listen, etc.
I’m a lawyer (but British, working in London) who is involved in our recruiting side a bit. Our model is different to what you’re looking at, but my semi-educated guess says that you’ve got a lot of good advice in this thread, with the quote above hitting the nail on the head.
The hiring side of the table will be looking at you to decide whether you’re someone they are confident that they can stand in front of a client and have the client come away with a favourable impression of the firm. At the same time they have to work alongside you, so they want someone who isn’t an asshole, doesn’t have sharp elbows, isn’t going to try to point-score at their expense, and can do a great job.
Despite the interview and e&d training we’ve had, the “do I like this person?” reflex remains a hard one to combat, and so that’s the one you want to aim to exploit.
i’m a partner at a 10 attorney firm interviewing associates today for a position. the resume typically will prove hard skills to me for a first year associate. it is soft skills that matter to me at this point. can this person work in a smallish work environment and get along with everyone and take direction? is this someone i can trust to put in front of clients pretty quickly? is this someone i’ll enjoy being around? is this someone who help immediately fill a workload problem that my firm is having, but be flexible enough to do whatever comes in the door? is this someone long-term who may be partner potential? is this someone committed to the community/geographic location – which is more important for smaller towns than big cities. first year lawyers are typically idiots. if you come across as arrogant it will be seen through immediately. my two cents.
After exactly one year of clerking, countless job applications, and over a dozen interviews, I received an offer at my dream job—a small, 8 person firm that specializes in commercial real estate. I had two in-person interviews and just received an offer over the phone this morning. I am beyond stoked right now. I turned down one offer at a firm that wasn’t the right fit, and I’m very glad that I did.
Thank you to everyone here who provided fantastic advice and insight!