Ultra runners, talk to me about double marathon recovery

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m considering Ultraman Canada at some point in the future. The race is in august and I plan on doing Kona and IMAZ after that. I’m trying to figure out recovery time from that double marathon. Based on my experience to date, I find that my weekly run volume seems to be the biggest factor in recovery time. If I had to guess, I’d estimate that I need to have several months at about 90 miles per week, in order for the ultraman run to not take a huge toll and put me in a deep hole.

Do you think that volume is enough?

I know it’s a long way out, but I’m thinking about it now because it has an implication on what other races I do.

2

A couple of things stick out. 90MPW for “several months” seems like way too much running for a 52.5 mile run. Most 100 mile run plans top out at 80-90MPW and that’s just the 2-3 really big weeks, most of the rest are in the 65-75MPW range. And you still need to train for the swimming and biking.

The next question is what are you goals for Kona? IMAZ? Just finish? PR? Re-qualify?

3

Surface and pace will have the most impact to recovery. If you go easy and it’s a trail, you could be ready to go full blast in 10 days. I threw down an easy 50 on a trail a couple of weeks ago and felt pretty normal about a week later with the legs feeling really good at the 10 day mark. I went real easy though(9:37) with lots of power hiking up hills and relaxing at aid stations.

Good luck…

4

thanks - my goals for Kona if I do it the same year will be to continue the learning curve. Every year the island beats me over the head and teaches me something new. Any other IM, I seem to be able to turn up and execute well. Not Kona - it seems like one of those races that you improve with experience. So, for that year, I would turn up and do my best, but I wouldn’t have a goal of podium or PR, just “smart execution”. For IMAZ I’d want to KQ, but the main reason to KQ is to use Kona the following year as a big training day for Ultraman Hawaii a few weeks later. If I don’t KQ I can just as easily go out to the big island for my own training camp. So the short answer is - Kona and IMAZ don’t really matter that much that year.

I can handle 60 mpw fairly easily and consistently, but it feels to me like 52 miles would still beat me up a bit if I don’t ramp it up higher.

5

For starters, racing Ultraman Canada is going to be sub optimal for having a great race in Kona. Unless you end up walking half of the run you are at best case looking at 4 weeks of recovery. If you have never run that far before recovery can drag out much longer than that. Also consider that the training you will be doing leading in to the race is just as likely to depress your ability to recover quickly post race as the race itself.

If you then decide to race IMAZ after Kona, I would fully expect to read a how to recover from overtraining thread from you in the following months.

…

6

I’m considering Ultraman Canada at some point in the future. The race is in august and I plan on doing Kona and IMAZ after that. I’m trying to figure out recovery time from that double marathon. Based on my experience to date, I find that my weekly run volume seems to be the biggest factor in recovery time. If I had to guess, I’d estimate that I need to have several months at about 90 miles per week, in order for the ultraman run to not take a huge toll and put me in a deep hole.

Do you think that volume is enough?

I know it’s a long way out, but I’m thinking about it now because it has an implication on what other races I do.

You can look at this a bunch of different ways, I didn’t do it but crewed and coached an athlete this year. I know you do testing, so the first thing we looked at with her post testing was how many calories could she handle on the bike, at that point we knew at program start that nutrition would not be an issue (she was “efficient” enough) unlike IM the day to day requirements are a lot less, and you have good recovery time between days to get Cals back up, massage etc.

So the idea was to focus more intensity on the bike, IMO you can handle a higher output on the 2 cycling days as you don’t have to run after. For the run we focused not so much on speed, but “durability” IIRC the longest planned run was 60km but only turned out to be 53km. We went over Marathon distance only twice, the UMC course is also about 60km or 3/4 gravel road….not a trail but a softer surface than say Kona UM.

Think of it as a hard stage race with a long run on day 3 :wink:

We also looked at a few selective shoe sections/changes, Hoka’s were a bit hot on her, but we did change to them for the last 20km downhill sections.

Also I would say 90mpw is huge, the biggest weeks here were only about 90km. Often 70-80km. But heavy focus on cycling, (big rides, but also more intensity than you might think)

Swim was a bit more than a normal IM athlete, IIRC twice at 7-8km….nothing too crazy.

Recovery will depend a lot on what you do in the second half of the run……or how hard you go out on the first half, It is also very hot……we stopped and set up aid every 1km……You need a really good crew plan, which she set up and was thinking about months in advance.

**Edit: depends on the athlete but a very rough run predictor would be 2XIM run plus 30 minutes (or so)

Maurice

7

For ultra running it’s less about MPW and more on how you get those miles. Back to back long runs every couple of weeks (20-25 miles each day) are really important and have a more positive impact that weeks on end of 70+ miles.

8

That makes sense. So more “canova style” long race pace runs with a lot of recovery after every 3-4 days vs just weekly miles

9

If you then decide to race IMAZ after Kona, I would fully expect to read a how to recover from overtraining thread from you in the following months.

…

Yup, I think I’d just have to be flexible on any races after UM, and be willing to can them if I don’t recover in time

10

Rob…it really depends on how fast you want to do the UM marathon. If you do a Peter Kotland signature edition 2x2:46 marathon double, it might take you a decade to recover. If you run like Miro around 6:30 then it’s going to be months less. If you “jog” it in at 7:30 because you have a 2 hour buffer after the swim+bike, then you’re probably ready to roll in 2 weeks

11

If you then decide to race IMAZ after Kona, I would fully expect to read a how to recover from overtraining thread from you in the following months.

…

Yup, I think I’d just have to be flexible on any races after UM, and be willing to can them if I don’t recover in time

Sounds like you need to run Comrades too!

12

Sounds like you need to run Comrades too!

Bucket list for sure!

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Thanks Maurice - lots of good advice!

14

Surface and pace will have the most impact to recovery. If you go easy and it’s a trail, you could be ready to go full blast in 10 days. I threw down an easy 50 on a trail a couple of weeks ago and felt pretty normal about a week later with the legs feeling really good at the 10 day mark. I went real easy though(9:37) with lots of power hiking up hills and relaxing at aid stations.

Good luck…

             Nice back door brag. People who did the 50 at my last Ultra, you would of been top 10, 14 min out of top 5 with well over 100 participants. So doing that "Easy"  no bad
15

The guy to talk to would be “Kevin Cutjar” he doesn’t post on here very much but he won UM Kona back in the 90’s and then set the course record at UMC….only to have it broken by an athlete he coached and another Penticton local “Dave Matheson” IIRC Dave pretty much goes to Kona every year.

I didn’t talk to Kevin, but our athlete did and gave her a tonne of logistical info “tips and tricks” for crew set up, lake currents etc…

Maybe he will see this and chime in.

As Dev said it really depends on how you approach the race, a “safer” goal might be to be in killer swim and cycling shape, but good enough on the run to have a cushion, run well but not go too deep….depending on what the goal is of course

Maurice

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As Dev said it really depends on how you approach the race, a “safer” goal might be to be in killer swim and cycling shape, but good enough on the run to have a cushion, run well but not go too deep….depending on what the goal is of course

Maurice

yes I think I could do that swim/bike quite hard and not need much recovery. I like that run approach - turning up in shape to be able to run 7:30s, but only running 8:00 or whatever is comfortable (I heard it was something like 37C this year, in which case even 9:00/mile might be tough!)

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As Dev said it really depends on how you approach the race, a “safer” goal might be to be in killer swim and cycling shape, but good enough on the run to have a cushion, run well but not go too deep….depending on what the goal is of course

Maurice

yes I think I could do that swim/bike quite hard and not need much recovery. I like that run approach - turning up in shape to be able to run 7:30s, but only running 8:00 or whatever is comfortable (I heard it was something like 37C this year, in which case even 9:00/mile might be tough!)

One more thought. Since you just ran 3:16 in IM Arizona here is some context. My buddy Tony O’Keeffe won IM Tremblant 50-54 and did a 3:12 marathon there. According to Tony, UM winner Tobias is a 2:30 open marathoner. Tony and Tobias both ran in the 6:40 range yesterday in Kona. It was a straight up 6:40 minutes of racing…no lolly gagging, no touring, these guys were out to hurt each other. He went out with Miro in sub 40 min 10K to “feel out the field”. Here is a subset from Tony’s FB page (I am sure he won’t mind my copying this over):

  • I finished Day 2 in 4th place overall, 1 hour and 5 mins back from first place, Craig. Tobias was in 2nd 10 min ahead of me, and Peter Kotland rounded out 3rd place with a 4 min lead on me. Defending Champion Miro Kregar was 54 mins back from me,very much a threat on the run. Day 3 is a double marathon - 84.4 km, from Hawi to Kona, which is the bike course for the Kona Ironman. Going in I had to make up over an hour on Craig, and stay with 54 mins of ubher runner Miro. Peter Kotland holds the run course record at 5 hours 33 mins for the double (holy smokes) and Tobias as a 2 hour 30 marathoner is no slouch. I expected that this race would come down to the run and I was ready to hurt myself. Miro took it out and I went with him holding 3:30 min km’s through the first 5 km. We went through the first 10 km sub 40 mins before settling in to a more humane pace. Miro slowly pulled away and at the half marathon point he went through in 1:27 and I went through in 1:30. Some quick math and I was confident he would not make up the 54 mins he needed to catch me, and so settled in and followed his figure in the distance. I rolled through the first marathon in 3 hours 10 mins and kept it steady. I had to make up 10 mins on Tobias, who was lurking behind me about 4 mins back but coming on strong. I had at least 17 mins on Peter at that point, and so I was running in 3rd place on the road. Tobias went by me looking great, and we stayed together for the next several miles. This is where my support crew pulled me from the brink of disaster. I was fading, but they kept me in the game. Let me digress for a minute: my wife Jackie has crewed for me at every major event in my racing life. When I see her smiling face it makes me want to be a bigger man, I want to be her hero. In my darkest moments, her smile is so reassuring to me that I’ll pull myself inside just to impress her. We had many moments along the Queen K just like that. My buddy Andre was kept hopping, his arms were loaded with anything and everything a despairing athlete might want, and I enjoyed watching him watching me suffer. He earned it, having to dispense the “sponges”, what a friend. I was fading and I could feel it, and I had to pick it up. I didn’t know how far back Craig was, but I knew he was hurting too, and I had to make up a lot of time. My buddy Gil started pacing me, and we soon found my stride again. I started pulling back time on Tobias and got withing spitting distance again. We rolled like that over the next 20km making time on the field, finally hitting the airport and the 17 km home stretch. Gil never left my side, we ran some 30km s together clicking off the km’s. When we passed the Energy Lab Tobias made a big surge and started to pull away. I went as hard as I could go to try and match his pace, and with 5km or so left to the finish he pulled away. Miro took the run win in just under 6 hours 30 mins, Tobias 2nd and me in 3rd in 6 hours 46 mins. Tobias made up another 5 or so minutes and was ahead of me by 15 mins, with Craig still out on the lava fields. Craig need to run 7 hours 36 mins to stay in first. As the clock rolled through the 7:36 marker and no Craig in sight, Tobias was crowned World Champion. If another 10 mins went by, I would have 2nd place, but it was not to be. At 7:41 on the clock Craig came rolling in to hold on to 2nd, just 5 mins separating he and I. What a race. All of the jelly fish stings, sun burnt skin, blisters, rashes on the unmentionables, aches, pains and cramps are worth the price paid to be relevant in a race of this magnitude. If you’ve read this far then you will be willing to read a little further: thank you all for your kind support and words of encouragement along the way, and a huge thanks you to my support team! To Suzie and Arlene (Andre and Gil’s crew) thank you for being here and being my friend. Best regards from Kona!*
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I did the Norseman - Kona - IMAZ triple this year and I was WIPED at the end of the experience. Obviously Norseman is only a fraction of Ultraman (but same timing as UM Canada) but paired with the training required going into such a tough event, I struggled to get out of a dark hole post-Norseman. I had a sub-par day at Kona and then IMAZ was just for kicks, again far below my expectations/potential.

I think you can definitely do this but expect the rebound back to training to be unlike any other Ironman you’ve done. I was recovered from Kona in 3 days and back to training, while with Norseman I didn’t feel like myself for 2-2.5 weeks.

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I did the Norseman - Kona - IMAZ triple this year and I was WIPED at the end of the experience.

man that is QUITE the triple… and lines up pretty well with my question! I think the craziness of Norseman might make it as bad as an ultraman (or very close anyway)

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thanks for sharing that Dev - quite an insight into the race! I’d for sure need to step it up in the run department - I don’t think I’d ever be a 2:30 open marathon guy unless I swallowed a tapeworm farm (maybe 2:48ish?) so I’d have to crush those fast runners on the swim/bike to have a decent chance.