U.S. Government: looking after your rights

Not. Short story: an American citizen is jailed while studying in Saudi Arabia, and has bee held for 18 months, and apparently tortured. His family sues, claiming that the US government requested the arrest. US goverment doesn’t deny it, but says they have no jurisdiction over foreign custodians. Judge (appointed by Bush Sr.) throws out the government argument, pointing out that the policy would allow the US to cause any citizen it chooses to be arrested in a foreign country without due process, thereby doing an end-around of the Constitution (“In short,” he wrote, “the United States is, in effect, arguing for nothing less than the unreviewable powers to separate an American citizen from the most fundamental of his constitutional rights merely by choosing where he will be detained or who will detain him.”). From the NYTimes. U.S. Asserts Authority Over American in Saudi Jail

**By NEIL A. LEWIS **

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/dropcap/w.gifASHINGTON, Dec. 16 - A federal district judge ruled Thursday that United States courts had jurisdiction in the case of an American citizen jailed in Saudi Arabia as a terrorism suspect, whose family alleges that he is being kept there and mistreated at the behest of United States law enforcement officials.

The ruling by Judge John D. Bates is the latest in a series of court decisions that have rebuffed the Bush administration in its efforts to keep detention policies and actions connected to fighting terrorism beyond the reach of the judiciary.

Judge Bates ruled in the case of Ahmed Abu Ali, 23, of Falls Church, Va., who was arrested by Saudi authorities while attending the Islamic University of Medina in Saudi Arabia in June 2003.

The issue in the case was whether the United States government bore some responsibility for him because of credible allegations that American officials had been responsible for his arrest, detention and interrogation.

Mr. Abu Ali’s family submitted affidavits providing some evidence that the Saudi government had no interest in him, that it was keeping him at the behest of American law enforcement authorities and that American prosecutors had boasted to other terrorism suspects that his fingernails had been torn out.

The administration did not respond to most of the allegations. Instead, government lawyers argued that federal courts lacked jurisdiction to require the government to answer questions about someone’s detention in cases “where the prisoner is being held by a foreign custodian, even where the United States allegedly has been involved in the prisoner’s incarceration in the first place.”

In his 69-page ruling, Judge Bates said the administration’s argument was too sweeping, citing the Supreme Court’s ruling on June 28 that the government may not deny a citizen the right to federal court review of his detention.

“The full contours of this position would permit the United States, at its discretion and without judicial review, to arrest a citizen of the United States and transfer her to the custody of allies overseas in order to avoid constitutional scrutiny,” he wrote. Accepting that, he said, would even allow the government “to deliver American citizens to foreign governments to obtain information through the use of torture.”

“In short,” he wrote, “the United States is, in effect, arguing for nothing less than the unreviewable powers to separate an American citizen from the most fundamental of his constitutional rights merely by choosing where he will be detained or who will detain him.”

Judge Bates, who was named to the Federal District Court here by President Bush’s father, told the government to respond to the specific allegations of complicity in Mr. Abu Ali’s detention and treatment, a procedural order that might not be appealable.

Mr. Abu Ali was investigated by the F.B.I. about his connections to a group of Virginia men who had spent weekends playing paintball in what prosecutors said was preparation to help Lashkar-e-Taiba, an Islamic group trying to force India out of the disputed Kashmir region.

Although the ruling on Thursday was largely tied to Mr. Abu Ali’s United States citizenship, some of the judge’s language applies to noncitizens. The ruling could thus have an impact on an unacknowledged practice of the United States government to keep as many as two dozen “high value detainees” in the formal custody of foreign governments, under which they are interrogated harshly.

The Convention Against Torture, which the United States has signed and which is reaffirmed by American law, prohibits transferring detainees to a country where there is reason to believe that they may be maltreated.

Critics say cases like the high-value detainees’ and Mr. Abu Ali’s represent the government’s effort to make it appear that they were always in the custody of some other government and not transferred there from the United States.

That is disturbing. I understand why they want to be able to do that but it opens the door to tons of abuse. I guess that is why we have checks and balances. I support giving the government power to stop terror but we can’t have them asking other countries to do for us what we can’t do to our citizens.

Disgraceful. Latest in a long line of abuses by the administration.

Uh, maybe you might want to first have some reason to believe that the US is actually calling the shots before you jump to such conclusions. Frankly, I find it impossible to believe that Saudi Arabia would do that for our benefit.

Tell me again, what country allowed a bunch of terrorists, I think in the Kobar (sp?) Towers bombing case to “escape?” Oh, that’s right Saudi Arabia. Tell me again what country supposedly finances a lot of terrorism. Oh, yeah, Saudi Arabia. Do you really think this country would grab someone off the street and rip out their fingernails based on our request?

They won’t even let our female citizens that have been kidnapped by their fathers or husbands out of the country. But you figure they would do this for us? Don’t think so.

Why do you guys jump to such outrageous conclusions based upon 1% of the evidence made available by someone with an ax to grind? Stop being manipulated by lawyers bearing no evidence.

Frankly, I find it impossible to believe that Saudi Arabia would do that for our benefit.

Frankly, Art, you’re being impossibly naive.

**Do you really think this country would grab someone off the street and rip out their fingernails based on our request? **

Why wouldn’t they?

Why do you guys jump to such outrageous conclusions based upon 1% of the evidence made available by someone with an ax to grind? Stop being manipulated by lawyers bearing no evidence.

Please, give me a break. Always ready to give the benefit of the doubt, no matter how unreasonable, to the Bush administration, huh? Always working on the assumption that any criticism of the adminstration is carried out by someone with an axe to grind, and anybody who believes it is not much more than an easily duped sap.

This isn’t the first time this has happened recently, Art, it’s only the first time that I’m aware of it’s involved an American citizen. We’ve been turning over terror suspects to other countries- with, shall we say, less restrictive interrogation techniques- for some time. The only news here, far as I can tell, is that now we’re doing it to US citizens, too.

Vitus, I think you are naive to believe to think that Saudi Arabia is such a puppet. Sure, they might haul someone off the street and rip out his fingernails, but they would do it for their own reasons, not ours.

This article was just a lot of lawyer accusations backed up by no proof whatever. Yet you get your panties in wad. Why do you do this?

Aside from the lawyer’s claims, presented without proof, you have no knowledge whether this guy is held by Saudia Arabia, whether he has been interrogated, whether his fingernails have been ripped out, or whether the United States knows anything about the guy. Other than that, you seem well informed.

You know better than this. Why do you jump at such rubbish that reinforces what you so want to believe?

So now the judge tells the government to tell what they know about the case. What will you think if the answer is nothing? Oh, forgot, that article won’t make the press.

If the US suspects that one of its citizens in a foreign country has terrorist ties and asks a foreign government to check it out, I say EXCELLENT!

If the US had somehow gotten hold of the 9/11 attackers and held them for questioning or prosecution prior to the attacks, the liberals would have been screaming bloody murder at human rights violations and racial stereotyping. Never mind that fact that it could have saved 3000 lives (this time). Any excuse to put down the USA is good enough.

I honsestly can’t believe how quick the “left” is to cry foul against the US for every single SUSPECTED human rights violation, yet continuously turn their collective head to the blatant murder and oppression throughout the rest of the world by the self-declared enemies of the US.

You people want to be crusaders for a cause and need to have something like this to get all uptight about. You just NEED to have a reason to hate this country and the current administration.

And like Art said, if this guy does turn out to have terrorist ties, we will never hear about that one, right. You will turn him in to a poor freedom fighter justly tryiing to save the middle east from the US oppressors!

Ray

I just get surprised how easily people react to possibly baseless allegations from some lawyer. Vitus, in particular, you know better.

You should see some of the allegations I have gotten in the way of in various lawsuits. Everyone, including the lawyers who wrote them, knew they were lies. Mother raper and father killer on a good day. Father raper and mother killer on a bad day. Funny, but I never see the headline when the lawsuit crumbles and gets dismissed.

If there is any truth to anything alleged, I will wager the US got some information from a source they don’t want to make public, and they passed that information along to the Saudis who took things from there. That would explain the behavior of all parties.

This process is called multilateralism, working with allies, and sharing intelligence. I thought that was what we were supposed to do.

The truth will prove far less dramatic than the allegations, so we will never see that news article.

I think it’s funny to see klehner, 5280 and vitus spazzing out about this story.

If there was a story about how the US released a prisoner from gitmo and the former prisoner was caught again fighting against US forces or plotting more terrorism it would be interesting to read about their thoughts.

We have alraeady had those stories. We have a number of soldiers dead because of released Gitmo prisioners. Of course the former prisoners are also dead, so the news is not completely bad.

I think you are naive to believe to think that Saudi Arabia is such a puppet.

What do you mean, “such a puppet”? The Saudi regime is a puppet of the US. A duplicitous, untrustworthy, rotten to the core, lying, backstabbing puppet, but a puppet just the same. You can’t seriously be arguing that we don’t exert any influence at all over the Saudis, Art. That’s one of the things that pisses of the Islamists so much.

they might haul someone off the street and rip out his fingernails, but they would do it for their own reasons, not ours.

Maybe they wouldn’t do it for us if it was against their interests, but in the case, I don’t see how it is. What does it cost them to rip out the fingernails of one more sucker for us? Nothing at all, and maybe it gets them some capital down the line somewhere. Why *wouldn’t *they do it for us?

**Why do you jump at such rubbish that reinforces what you so want to believe? **

I don’t know what it is that makes you think I *want *believe my government is turning over people to barbaric states to be tortured? I can assure you that I don’t want to believe any such thing.

I believe it’s a credible claim because every other similar instance that I’ve heard about in the news has turned out to be true, as far as I know. It fits the pattern of the administrations behavior perfectly. It’s completely consistent with the administrations practices, Art. That’s why I believe it.

So now the judge tells the government to tell what they know about the case. What will you think if the answer is nothing? Oh, forgot, that article won’t make the press.

First, I guess we’ll have to see if the Bushies comply with the order. If they make a credible case that they’re not connected with any shady practice here, I’ll start a new thread and admit I was wrong.

How about you, Art- if it turns out that they did this, what are you going to say?

What other cases are you talking about? I don’t know of any other cases of US orchestrated torture via proxy.

How can a puppet be backstabbing? We have some influence over the Saudis around the edges, as we do with many countries. They have more influence over us than the other way around.

Well, if it turns out that high levels of the US government orchestated torture against an American citizen via proxy, I will be stunned and admit I am wrong.

This thing will turn out just the drug companies are terrible for exploiting orphans with AIDS drugs article. It will be just a bunch of baseless accusations that have no legs and are never heard from again.

** I don’t know of any other cases of US orchestrated torture via proxy. **

The practice has been going on for some time, Art, and has been widely reported. Here’s a story from the Guardian as far back as March 2002: http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0%2C1284%2C665939%2C00.html

I’m sure a little research on your part would turn up plenty of other stories saying same.

We have some influence over the Saudis around the edges, as we do with many countries.

To suggest that our relationship with the Saudis resembles our relationship with “many” countries is disengenuous in the extreme. Even so, what makes you think getting them to torture someone for us would require anything more than “some influence around the edges”? I have a feeling it isn’t very difficult to get them to torture a prisoner. I imagine it doesn’t take much persuasion at all, in fact.

This thing will turn out just the drug companies are terrible for exploiting orphans with AIDS drugs article. It will be just a bunch of baseless accusations

I don’t think the guinea pig orphan story has been shown to be baseless, Art. Maybe you know something I don’t. Let me know, and let me know if you find anything that suggests this American/Saudi torture end run is unfounded. I’ll be waiting.

This article doesn’t cite a single case in which a suspect was captured by the US and subject to torture by a third party on our behalf. It cites a few cases of people returned to their own country. Then it goes on to say that those countries can use torture, not that they did, nor that they did it on our behalf, nor that we authorized it, nor that we got any information from it. Other than that, splendid reporting.

Why do you let these people make you believe something that they don’t actually say or substantiate? They lead you up to the cliff, but you jump off all by yourself.

A little research on your part might turn up a real case, but I very much doubt it. One of the reasons I doubt it is because such an approach would be very unlikely to get accurate information and just wouldn’t be worth it.

If you want to accuse someone of something like this you should have you ducks in a row, not just be making leaps of imagination like this author.

It cites a few cases of people returned to their own country.

Read more closely, Art. It doesn’t say they’re returned to their own country, it says they’re removed to “third countries.” Like the Yemeni microbiology student captured in Pakistan and flown by US jet to Jordan.

Then it goes on to say that those countries can use torture, not that they did, nor that they did it on our behalf, nor that we authorized it, nor that we got any information from it.

LOL! Yes, I’m sure we render these suspects to third countries, of which they’re not citizens, and in which their alleged crimes weren’t committed, for no real reason at all. Certainly not because we think they might get tortured in these countries, and give up useful information. No, no, not at all. If these people were tortured after we turned them over to the authorities, we’d be shocked. Shocked!

Why, look at all the terror suspects we’ve turned over to third parties that actually respect human rights, like Canada, or France, or Great Britain. Oh, wait, we haven’t done that. Oops.

Do tell, Art, why is it that you think we’re turning over suspects to countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan? I mean, you think I’m acting so hysterically in believing that we do it because we know they’ll be tortured, I’m sure you must have a perfectly reasonable and credible explanation. I’m all ears.

You really need to stop accusing people who criticize the administration of jumping to conclusions every time this type of story is reported, Art. Even disregarding these reports about torture by proxy, the administration’s record of trying to skirt both international norms concerning human rights and constitutional guarantees for American citizens is undeniable. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

We certainly have turned prisoners over to France and Great Britian, and by way of Gitmo for that matter. You are factually wrong there. I don’t know about Canada.

It may well be we turned those people over to those countries because they were wanted there. The article is notably silent on that subject. Given that it was the Guardian doing the writing, I will wager the reason for the prisoner’s destination would have been documented if it were disadvantageous to the US. It wasn’t. There is a reason for that, and I don’t think it is only lousy reporting.

The reality is that you can’t point to a single case where those in authority in the US government made a decision to hand someone over to a foreign country for the purpose of extracting information by torture. If you can, put up the facts. Tell me who was arrested, why, when, where they were sent to, what torture was administered, what was learned, and the reliability of your information.

You can’t do this. All you can do is make assumptions and profess to be shocked.

Don’t make accusations like this you can’t back up. This article splashes a headline which is not backed up by the story, yet you allow yourself to be yanked around. You might not want to do that.

"Tell me who was arrested, why, when, where they were sent to, what torture was administered, what was learned, and the reliability of your information. "

You make me laugh Art. I’m sure Vitus will be able to give you all that information because usually when a government allows a 3rd party nation to conduct interrogations for the purpose of not having to conform to U.S. laws regarding torture or prisoner treatment, they make sure that all the details of that exchange are available to the public.

Um, yeah. What vitus and slowguy said.

One thing you can rely upon is that this government is unable to keep secrets. We can’t even keep war plans secret. If this was going on, you would be able to answer all my questions. You can’t, so you make assumptions and jokes.

Don’t accuse people of such things without credible evidence.

Well first off Art, I never accused anyone of anything so cool off. Second, our government keeps all kinds of secrets. Third, your argument seems to be that because Vitus can’t produce evidence of a government conspiracy, that conspiracy must absolutely not exist. That’s laughable and naive, so yes, I made a joke about it. I don’t know for a fact that this situation occurs with any regularity, but your blind faith that we would never do such a thing is just as dumb as the people who assume that we do just because they think Pres Bush is evil.