I searched and read a number of related posts here on ST about the tubular vs. clincher debate, but I still have a question. I have ridden Zipp 404 tubulars for like 12 years now and love 'em. I double flatted during one IM race in 1998, but other than that, I’ve not flatted in a race. I love the feel of the Zipps and I feel, in a subjective way, faster when I’m racing on 'em. So that’s all good. Now I’m getting a new bike which will have a Zipp 808 rear and a Zipp 404 front - in the clincher version. I checked weights and see that it’s basically 1,200g vs. 1,600g, or about 1 lb. difference. I know it’s not all about weight, so I don’t mean to focus just on that. But I’m wondering, will these Zipp clinchers race as fast as my current Zipp tubulars? Granted, it’s an 808 rear, but still, just the idea that there is all that extra rotational weight has me thinking. In the long haul, if I knew I’d never flat in a race, I’d ride tubulars for sure. So that is the answer to my question somewhat. But if I knew the newest Zipp clinchers with good tires were going to go “just as fast” as my Zipp tubulars, then I’d probably go with 'em for the convenience and cost factor. Thoughts?
If you were able to pull your tubulars off the rim when you flatted in your IM, then your clinchers are going to be faster due to lower rolling resistance.
If you were able to pull your tubulars off the rim when you flatted in your IM, then your clinchers are going to be faster due to lower rolling resistance.
I was able to change out both flats, pulling the tubular off the rim by hand, since I used my “secret” gluing method. 
I glue the tire but good all around EXCEPT the one section of the wheel between 2 spokes opposite the valve stem. There I put a light coating of glue down. So when I flat, I first roll this little section, about 1.5" to 2" long, as much as I can to the side. Then I start tearing and yanking away. Once I have 25% or so of the tire off, the rest just gives way. I actually invented this technique (please hold your applause) and, when I mentioned it to people at bike shops, they nodded and said “Yeah, makes sense” in the way that made me think this must be standard protocol for gluing up a tire. But it probably isn’t, witnessing some of the difficulties I’ve seen people have getting tires off the rim. I sincerely doubt I’d roll the tire on the sharpest of turns, though some may disagree with that. On an 18 spoke wheel, we’re talking about the space between 2 spokes, or 1/18th of the circumference. And even that section, like I said, is glued, just not as much.
Anyhow, given all of that - are you saying that a tubular glued with not so much glue will have wobble or something and not have as low a rolling resistance as a clincher?
he’s saying rolling resistance for “properly” glued tubulars and clinchers are the same.
however - gluing a tubular on “properly”, so that you get the best performance, will mean that removing it on the side of the road is all but impossible. what you were doing would not be considered “proper” gluing.
and, you’re right… in tri weight is largely irrelevant.
IMO,
your biggest concern should be flats.
You should stick to what you like, and then worry about something more important.
I’m going back to tubulars for road racing as they offer a lot more security in tight corners than clinchers, plus I get to pump up my tires to 160. And, if you flat in a road race you’ve lost anyway.
On a TT bike, - the only relevent issue would be a flat.
what’s the benefit of pumping them to 160?
what’s the benefit of pumping them to 160?
Because he can!
except the tubular zipps have a more aerodynamic shape
If you were able to pull your tubulars off the rim when you flatted in your IM, then your clinchers are going to be faster due to lower rolling resistance.
.
Feels macho: just like freshly shaved legs!
what’s the benefit of pumping them to 160?
None. In fact, it’s slower than a lower pressure (100 - 120 ish).
You might want to try “properly” glueing the tire all the way around the rim.
If you have a flat, cut through the tire with a single edge razor blade, stick your finger in the hole, and peel it off like a snake.
I was just viewing an Endurance Films DVD on the Science of Triathon, and Wes Hobson talked about leaving 4" unglued at opposite the stem. That was a 2003 video so it’s been around that long evidently. I’m considering that approach.
But on your point, you cut the tire crosswise right? I mean at right angles to the tire direction. I take it that it has worked for you?
With respect to tire pressure of 160 psig - remember this thread ??
except the tubular zipps have a more aerodynamic shape
If you were able to pull your tubulars off the rim when you flatted in your IM, then your clinchers are going to be faster due to lower rolling resistance.
Actually Zipp says “To cut through the wind, we’ve used our patented ABLC dimples to mitigate the “un-aero-ness” of a round shape at the wheel’s leading edge.” Hard to make a tubular assume other than a round cross section. Easier to tailor a shape in a clincher. i.e. the Bonty Aero Wing.
No…
I looked it over now, scanned through it. Are you saying that 160 is wrong, too high?, dangerous?
I’ll swear that I don’t know if it’s right, slower, or whatever, but running TuFo and Vittorio I always went to 160 and above. I’ve never had blow out, - but only puncture flats. I’ve always had good luck and felt like the tires stick better and are faster at those high pressures. I’ve also seen people have blow outs when they run lower pressures. I ride with folks who have flatted a lot and I feel like it’s because they ride at lower pressures; but i admit that there’s nothing scientific about what I’m saying…
Ok, but the zipp tubular rims are nonetheless more aero than the clinchers, i believe both according to their own data and Hed’s data, which, strangely enough, uses the bonty aero wing tire I believe.
Actually Zipp says “To cut through the wind, we’ve used our patented ABLC dimples to mitigate the “un-aero-ness” of a round shape at the wheel’s leading edge.” Hard to make a tubular assume other than a round cross section. Easier to tailor a shape in a clincher. i.e. the Bonty Aero Wing.
Field testing has shown that many tires, once you get over around 120psi start to get drastically worse rolling resistance.
It is better to error on too low of a psi, than too high.
No…
I looked it over now, scanned through it. Are you saying that 160 is wrong, too high?, dangerous?
I’ll swear that I don’t know if it’s right, slower, or whatever, but running TuFo and Vittorio I always went to 160 and above. I’ve never had blow out, - but only puncture flats. I’ve always had good luck and felt like the tires stick better and are faster at those high pressures. I’ve also seen people have blow outs when they run lower pressures. I ride with folks who have flatted a lot and I feel like it’s because they ride at lower pressures; but i admit that there’s nothing scientific about what I’m saying…
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the tires only. I’ve seen the HED data - not clear what tires were used ??
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the tires only. I’ve seen the HED data - not clear what tires were used ??
someone on here said that they used the bontrager aerowing, I think. Not sure!
There is some data at the end of the first post on runs with 150 psig. Also Tom generously has posted data at various pressures showing an optimum pressure ~ 125 psig to achieve minimum Crr for the particular set of road and rider conditions in his test.