In the continued, spirited debate over tubulars allow me to contribute these notes in a somewaht random manner:
Only one post on this forum reported any significant incidence of flats on tubulars. That was with Vittoria Corsa CX and CG cotton casing tires, a tire designed over 30 years ago and changed little since.
Modern synthetic casing tubulars such as TUFO and Continental have a phenomenally low incidence of punctures compared to cotton casing tubulars of even ten years ago.
Perhaps the most significant advantage of tubulars over clinchers has nothing to do with the tire, it has to do with the rim. A tubular rim does not need sidewalls or a hook bead to retain a tire. When those are eliminated rim weight at the outer circumference is significantly reduced.
The round section of a tubular tire at full inflatio enables it to retain a greater contact patch at greater “lean” or roll angles on the bike.
Pinch flats are virtually eliminated with tubulars since there is almost nothing for the tube inside the tire to be pinched against- the rim has no walls.
Weigh a tubular wheel, 20 grams of cement and tubular tire. Weigh a clincher tire, clincher wheel, inner tube, and rim strip. Wow, amazing difference isn’t it? All at the outer circumference of the rim where 1 gram of weight actually does make a difference.
Practice changing a tubular tire in simulated race conditions. Time it. Do the same with a clincher. Time that. Compare. About 4-6 minutes for a clincher. About 1:30 to 2:00 for a tubular (although, obviously and admittedly, the tubular is not glued on and cornering must be done with caution).
No tools are required to remove and install a tubular tire.
Weigh a tubular wheel, 20 grams of cement and tubular tire. Weigh a clincher tire, clincher wheel, inner tube, and rim strip. Wow, amazing difference isn’t it? All at the outer circumference of the rim where 1 gram of weight actually does make a difference.
When you weigh everything, add the weight of an extra tubular (or two?) to the tubular wheels, and a spare tube and a patch kit to the clincher set.
The gram at the rim makes no noticeable difference in the real world, compared to weight anywhere else. For an interesting display of this, put your heaviest clincher rear wheel on a bike, and put it in the stand. Shift to a big gear, and pedal with one hand for one rotation. Note how fast the rear wheel moves (if you’ve got a rear pickup, check the max speed), and note how much weaker your arm is than your leg. You should be able to get the rear wheel up to 20mph or so with so little force, it’s trivial. That gram, or many grams, out on the rim is so lost in the noise of accelerating ~100,000g of the rest of you. “Rotating mass” should be removed from the lexicon.
Oh, I’ve done at least a hundred crits, road races, TTs, and triathlons, and I have never flatted on a clincher (used in many crits and road races). I have flatted twice with tubulars (once in a road race, once in a 1/2 IM).
and 2. again, why would this be? several clinchers are made with the exact same casing as sew-ups - in what manner does the bead affect flatting in the casing? what is the mechanism at work in this claim? moreover, all conti’s are very flat resistant, clincher or no. i hate them, but they are flat resistant. steel belted wolbers were ok, but back in the day my sew-ups were forever flatting and doing so most expensively and problemamatically. finally, carbon deep rims have been sussed out as being particulary flat prone bt nearly every team that uses them. what say ye to that? gonna bag on them, too?
hey, i will agree with you here! mostly. sew-up rims ( particularly the “flat prone” carbon ones…) are the nicer units. sew-up rims are sweet. but, carbon clinchers that work are just 'round the bend. you guys are gonna jump off’n the sew-up train like the yardman chasing woody guthrie when those rims get here.
well not to put too fine a p[oint on it, but triathletes ain’t exactly reknowned for putting tire adherence to the test, if you catch my drift. and of course there is that pesky double edged sword . . . . . . who DOESN"T have a parking meter impacting story relating to a rolled sew-up to tell from the roadracing scene? anyway, specialized and avocet and the like have ample adhesion studies . . . . . . this “[point” is a moot one at best.
if you are riding in a traithlon and you pinch flat you are an idiot. who does this? do you steer directly into a sharp edged pothole and compress as you hit the lip? who has ACTALLY pinch flatted a road tire time trialling along? is it even possible, at 100 psi? this is stupid.
what is the weight of two spare sew-ups and an alfredo binda toestrap again? and, what do they cost ??? you have well over a half pound and a hundred dollars in spares vs 8 dollars and 150 grams. nice.
i hope it is not raining, or as sheldon brown brown points out your race is done. ever hear of practicing with your clinchers? can you say, wobbling and crooked mounted sew-up? and of course, have fun stitching and regluing and all that for two hours tommorow evening. all for a maybe possibly 30 seconds. plus the incompatibility/inability to borrow/lend a spare in need at a crucial time somepalce in the middle of nowhere, etc. but it is true you can - if you wish - ride along on a carbon rim with a flat sew-up. but uhhhhhhhhhhh are you really abraham olano? you DO have free carbon wheels back in the truck waiting for you after your heroic rim-ride, then. ahem. what real person rides on the rim? comes to that, i will get off and jog or call it a day - " yeah honey, i spent the airfare for our florida trip on destroying my wheel to save 45 seconds in my last traithlon, you don’t mind do you?
one more in favor of racing tubulars: what if you don’t find the tiny sharp thing that causes your clincher puncture? i’m pretty sure i’m not the only one that has suffered a second puncture from not doing an adequate job with the first repair… in training i now spend a lot of careful attention finding the cause and fixing it. in a race, it’s simply yank and replace the tubular, no worries.
The worst flats I have ever had were on the old Tufos that were avilable about 7-8 years ago. I was lucky to go 100 miles without a flat. I flat a Sprinter about once/thousand miles. I go thousands of miles without a flat on my Vredestein and Panaracer clinchers.
Agreed. But they still aren’t any better than modern clinchers.
Agreed. But if we’re comparing weight, don’t forget to addd the weight of your spare tubular tire(s) versus the weight of your spare clincher tube(s).
Since a tubular can roll off at obscene lean angles, due to both lean angle itself and digging a pedal, I would say this doesn’t really matter.
How often do people pinch flat on the road? This is a non-issue if you run decent tire pressure and avoid potholes.
Isn’t this a repeat of number 3? And weight location only makes a difference in inertia. Since one doesn’t do a whole lot of accelerating and decelerating in a tri/du/TT, there is little relevance to where the weight is located.
This is highly individual. Some people can spend a half hour or more trying to get their tubulars off, especially with sweaty hands.
I don’t need tools to change my clincher tires.
I maintain that the only true advantage of a tubular is a slight weight advantage. And this advantage disappears if you carry a spare.
I think the biggest advantage of tub over clinchers is the ability to run lower pressures for a smoother ride with no performance detriment. Tubulars can be easily run at 90 psi, giving better traction in slick conditions and a smoother ride.
Disadvantages of tubs.
No 1, cost. That’s a biggie.
you really need to check the tire quality. Many tubulars are simply not manufactured perfectly round, there can be a bump in the tire. Contis sometimes do that.
The best ride comes from the cotton casing tires. The synthetic tires simply do not ride as well as a pair of Vittorias.
Flat resistance is a bit of a myth. Clinchers need to be inflated harder than tubulars. I rarely flat my clinchers, possibly because I always run them at over 120 psi (regardless of the max rating, any decent clincher can handle that). All flats I’ve had were caused by shards of glass or wire, or an inch long nail, doubtful that a tubular would have held up to any of that. I’ve never had a pinch flat.
When mounting a spare tubular, the left over glue will help, a little. The rain might affect it a little, at first, but I suspect that it would be squeezed out pretty quickly. The glue isn’t water soluble. The tire will be held on by inflation pressure. Assuming you got adequate pressure into it ( > 100 psi), it will stay on in all but the most spirited of cornering. For MOST triathletes on MOST courses, glue is probably superfluous.
Along those lines, if you have a clincher tire that gets a small hole or rip in it, you can put all the new tubes in that tire you want to, but it’ll eventually poke its way through the rip and flat itself again.
I guess that’s one way to justify the extra weight of an entirely new tubular tire as a spare instead of just carrying a lighter tube.
“5. if you are riding in a traithlon and you pinch flat you are an idiot. who does this? do you steer directly into a sharp edged pothole and compress as you hit the lip? who has ACTALLY pinch flatted a road tire time trialling along? is it even possible, at 100 psi? this is stupid.”
I have said I did not do it with my bike purchases, but I will admit that I bought tubular race wheels based solely on what I had read here and elsewhere. I also have a set (albeit different) of clincher race wheels. Can I tell a difference in the tires (or the lighter wheels)?-not really. Am I comfortable with tubular mounting?-no. Do I consider it easier to carry a couple of levers and a tube easier than an entire tubular?-yes. I admit I race the tubulars because that is what others said do. I really do not have enough of an opinion to make a meaningful comment-except-that in rough surface races I am totally convinced that I see a lot more pinch flats (or at least that is what I attribute it to) on clinchers-especially in the fat boy division (of which I am only slightly to the south). Maybe there are a lot of idiots out there-but figure I am in that catagory. I only race short stuff-so I do not carry spares/equipment in my races anyway.
Oh yeah, on the cost issue. There are a boatload of decent, midpriced clincher wheels that are suitable for racing. eg Ksyrium Elites, Bontrager Race Lites, Spinergy SR3, etc. The only way to get a pair of decent tubular wheels for less than $500 is to get a pair of 32 spoke Mavic Reflex tubies and build them up on a pair of Campy or Shimano hubs. (Which is a really nice wheel, by the way, and lighter than many boutique wheels, but not aero). Tubulars have priced themselves out of the mainstream.
Tom must not read the posts he starts?i was one who spoke about tubulars and getting flats,i never said what brand,so there must be two people talking about flats,i used every brand at one time or another and had flat problems,different wheels, i know the good points of tubulars,i bet i have ridden them as much as anyone,i just got tired of flatting then having to fix then,then they were used for training because now you have two different glue layers to worry about,(tire to wheel tire strip to tire) also sometimes its just hard to get them to roll round
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Ah, this was a legitimate question, eh? When she races, she glues on her tires, but only modestly and usually leaves a bit of a “glue gap” at a specific spot. If she gets a flat during the race, it is then much easier to rip the tire off with her bare hands, put on the (very) well-stretched spare, blast it with the Qwik-fil, and be back in the saddle in about 90 seconds. The downside is being careful around corners, but at 51, she does that anyway these days.
Speaking of spares, I’ve been wondering what to do about mine. Right now, they are sitting on an old pair of tubular wheels (from a swap meet) in the garage, fully inflated. The rims were clean of glue when I put the tires on last week, and the tires have a year-old application of glue on them. The tires have never been fully glued onto a rim; they’ve been folded up in a box for a year.
My thought was to just leave them on these rims until the night I pack up to go to a race. Then, just bundle them up with velcro staps and I’m ready to install if needed. I figured they would be stretched and easy to install this way.
Does this make sense? Will the glue bond be strong enough if I have to slap them on during a race?
<<If she gets a flat during the race, it is then much easier to rip the tire off with her bare hands, put on the (very) well-stretched spare, blast it with the Qwik-fil, and be back in the saddle in about 90 seconds. >>
Honest question, I’m not trying to stir any pots: What does one do with the flatted tire? Leave it on the side of the road and pick up later? If speed of changing tires during a race is the issue, wouldn’t this make more sense? Or, do you stuff it in a back pocket and finish the course?
“1. and 2. again, why would this be? several clinchers are made with the exact same casing as sew-ups - in what manner does the bead affect flatting in the casing?”
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Tom was talking about how the glue adheres with the older casing.
“finally, carbon deep rims have been sussed out as being particulary flat prone by nearly every team that uses them. what say ye to that? gonna bag on them, too?”
I haven’t gotten the impression that they flat more on carbon rims but rather they are SLIGHTLY more prone to roll on carbon rims…then again if your the one rolling a tire I don’t think you care if its a flat or a rolled tire…
if you are riding in a traithlon and you pinch flat you are an idiot. who does this? do you steer directly into a sharp edged pothole and compress as you hit the lip? who has ACTALLY pinch flatted a road tire time trialling along? is it even possible, at 100 psi? this is stupid.
This is a good point, but I have seen plenty of people in a panic rushing to fix their flat only to put it on incorrectly only to get a pinch flat with the spare…it would be easy to dismiss them as a novice but I have seen some excellent cyclists and mechanics do some very stupid things when rushing to get back in a race. This point aside…sometimes even in a triathlon vs. road racing shit happens.
" i hope it is not raining, or as sheldon brown brown points out your race is done. ever hear of practicing with your clinchers? can you say, wobbling and crooked mounted sew-up?"
If you use a pre-glued tire or tufo tape I don’t see why you would have to bag a race…afterall the glue is activated by pressure. I could be wrong on this one.
I ride both tubulars and clinchers…I like them both because both have their good points. I like that it is quicker for me to change a tubular than a clincher…I have changed probably hundreds of clinchers over the past 15 years and definitely find changing a tubular in a race much quicker…even though I glue the suckers on pretty tight. Also I love the feel of the tubulars and have had far less flats on them.
sew-up rims ( particularly the “flat prone” carbon ones…) are the nicer units. sew-up rims are sweet. but, carbon clinchers that work are just 'round the bend. you guys are gonna jump off’n the sew-up train like the yardman chasing woody guthrie when those rims get here.