Tubular vs clincher (2)

Triathlon Forum
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Tubular - fastest possible due to being slightly lighter and having slightly faster tire choices. Look at AFM’s Crr testing on Bike tech review for data. Pay particular attention to tire width (narrower is faster for almost any wheel) and how available a tire is. Some of the fastest clinchers are discontinued or wider than optimal.

You’ll be hearing from Tom and Jack in a few minutes, just take the time to look at the actual data.

OK then…let’s look at the last .pdf that was published http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf

Of the top 6 tires listed, 5 of them are tubular, with the 2nd place tire being the “out of print” Spec Mondo Open Tubular (clincher)…looks like the tubulars rule, huh? Well…not so fast. Let’s run them down one by one and see if they would be something to risk in a bike leg of a triathlon, or even a short TT.

  1. Vittoria Pista EVO CS Tubular - Ummm…“pista” means “track” and should only be used there…using that on the road is just asking for flat. It would probably flat if you just looked at it wrong

  2. Specialized S-Works Mondo Open Tubular (clincher) - out of print (idiots)

  3. Vittoria EVO Corsa Crono (20C) Tubular - only slightly more durable than the Pista, but also has the downside of only being 20mm wide (might be a good choice for a Hed3C only used in TTs). Definitely won’t “play nice” with the newer models of tubulars (and would void the warranty on a Hed Stinger, for example).

  4. Veloflex Record Tubular (measures 19mm) - another VERY lightweight build tire plus also narrow (see width issues above). Wind tunnel results also suggest you more than give up in poor aerodynamics what you may gain in Crr.

  5. Bontrager Race X Lite Pro Tubular - This is a good tire. About the only one on this list I would risk in a TT or a Tri bike leg. Kind of pricey though at ~$90 per tire. The 22C width is just about right for the newest “fast” wheel models.

  6. FMB Silk Tubular (23C) Criterium Tread Tubular - VERY expensive, but also fairly wide (measures out at 24mm).

After that, there’s a large grouping of clincher tires, with most of them NOT out of print and a smattering of tubulars, with the highest ranked tire (the Vittoria Corso EVO CX 320tpi) at no higher than 14th place. Besides that, the difference in Crr between the #6 tire and the highest ranked clincher tire (still in print) that would be useful for a TT or Tri bike leg (the Bontrager R4 Aero) is less than 2.5%

Yeah…it’s downright overwhelming that tubulars are obviously the fastest choice overall.

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Excellent analysis, Tom. Thank you!

.

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I’m willing to play a bit.

**1. Vittoria Pista EVO CS Tubular - Ummm…“pista” means “track” and should only be used there…using that on the road is just asking for flat. It would probably flat if you just looked at it wrong **

I didn’t say durable ;-0 I said fastest. Many riders have used it for TTs and its not a bad choice for a A race where you want to get every second and are willing to risk a flat to do it, but yeah its flat prone, so I give you this

1A) Vittoria Crono Evo CS tubular 320 tpi (22), 21.0, 180, 0.00226, New Tire Not on the list 21mm so good for all rims except for 1, and is even more flat resistant than #3 due to a puncture proof layer.

**2. Specialized S-Works Mondo Open Tubular (clincher) - out of print (idiots) ,**yeah what is it with clincher users that they are so willing to compromise on speed that they don’t buy enough of the fastest tures to keep a manf making them

**3. Vittoria EVO Corsa Crono (20C) Tubular - only slightly more durable than the Pista, but also has the downside of only being 20mm wide (might be a good choice for a Hed3C only used in TTs). Definitely won’t “play nice” with the newer models of tubulars (and would void the warranty on a Hed Stinger, for example). **

Define play nice? I’ll give you the stinger, but what other rims will it void the warrantee and where is the data that it is slower on other wider rims?

  1. Veloflex Record Tubular (measures 19mm) - another VERY lightweight build tire plus also narrow (see width issues above). Wind tunnel results also suggest you more than give up in poor aerodynamics what you may gain in Crr.

WT don’t really suggest anything they give data. IIRC the poor CdA was at high yaws, at lower yaws it was fine, and I never did get any confirmation if it was the tubular or clincher that was tested. but I much prefer tire 1A anyways
**5. Bontrager Race X Lite Pro Tubular - This is a good tire. About the only one on this list I would risk in a TT or a Tri bike leg. Kind of pricey though at ~$90 per tire. The 22C width is just about right for the newest “fast” wheel models. **

Agreed, although I paid $50, this on the back and 1A on the front is an excellent LC setup.

6. FMB Silk Tubular (23C) Criterium Tread Tubular - VERY expensive, but also fairly wide (measures out at 24mm).

Not sure why tire manf use such odd names, they should’ve named this the Dentist Sportive tire. I hope to ride the Flanders course next year. I love these if someone else would pay for them

So next in line for reasonable clinchers are the 2 Bontragers. Fine tires, plenty fast but I fail to see how either those would be faster on any clincher rims than using tires 1A on a 808Fc in front and either 1a or 5 on a disc in the rear? So yeah absent actual data of something faster the fastest choice overall seems to cover it pink or not

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Great post!!!

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1A) Vittoria Crono Evo CS tubular 320 tpi (22), 21.0, 180, 0.00226, New Tire Not on the list 21mm so good for all rims except for 1, and is even more flat resistant than #3 due to a puncture proof layer.

OK…but you said “look at the list”…and that one’s NOT on there :wink:

yeah what is it with clincher users that they are so willing to compromise on speed that they don’t buy enough of the fastest tures to keep a manf making them

I think the real question is more like “Why do these marketing people put the word ‘tubular’ in the name of a clincher tire?” If I had a dollar for every person that I recommended either the Bontrager or Specialized “Open Tubulars” to who initially responded with “But, I have clincher wheels…”, well…I’d have a LOT of dollars :wink:

Seriously…how could someone have the fastest clincher tire tested on a relatively well know list and then NOT use that in the marketing somehow? Especially one that has decent durability as well?? Makes me shake my head in wonder sometimes…

Define play nice? I’ll give you the stinger, but what other rims will it void the warrantee and where is the data that it is slower on other wider rims?

Well…there’s a reason that the “wide rim” trend has taken hold. Most folks don’t care to run a tire that narrow. So…even though they may work just fine on some rims, part of “playing nice” is meeting the user’s expectations. Being that narrow doesn’t do that.

  1. Veloflex Record Tubular (measures 19mm) - another VERY lightweight build tire plus also narrow (see width issues above). Wind tunnel results also suggest you more than give up in poor aerodynamics what you may gain in Crr.

WT don’t really suggest anything they give data. IIRC the poor CdA was at high yaws, at lower yaws it was fine, and I never did get any confirmation if it was the tubular or clincher that was tested. but I much prefer tire 1A anyways

The results were reported as an average over a range of yaws…but as I understand it, they’re still fairly poor even at low yaw angles.

So next in line for reasonable clinchers are the 2 Bontragers. Fine tires, plenty fast but I fail to see how either those would be faster on any clincher rims than using tires 1A on a 808Fc in front and either 1a or 5 on a disc in the rear? So yeah absent actual data of something faster the fastest choice overall seems to cover it pink or not

Although we don’t have aero data on those 2, I’m willing to bet that the parabolic tread shaping of the R4 Aero tires would more than make up for them being only slightly higher Crr, especially in higher yaw conditions.

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I’m searching for new wheelset, So I’m not sure which type of wheelset should I go for? Tubular or Clincher? Give me your feedback about them and any recommend of good wheelset with reasonable price. I know Zipp is best wheelset but the price is too crazy.
I didnt read any of the posts above…but, IMO do what you feel like. Before my A race this year, 2 days to be exact, i blew my tubular on a test and tune for the race. I had no spare and had to use whatever the local performance had. Created quite the mental drain leading into a crazy event. Had it been clincher, it would have been a simple tube swap and no big deal. Beyond that i feel like both have upsides and downs.

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Although we don’t have aero data on those 2, I’m willing to bet that the parabolic tread shaping of the R4 Aero tires would more than make up for them being only slightly higher Crr, especially in higher yaw conditions.

Well I do have data and that says 10% or so less Crr in all yaw conditions. And Zipp has said one of the benefits of the CC is that they can not make the clinchers as aero as the tubulars. So now your down to one wheel and one tire maybe being more aero at some yaw angles.

You discounted a fast tubular because of expense. That tire is $75 , rarely discounted and who knows how quickly the aero properties will last as the tire wears away the peak?

Like I said in the original post clinchers are great and very convenient. I still don’t see a clincher set up demonstrably faster than the fastest tubular set up particularly for TTs where “fast” tends to trump “convenient”.

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All the pissing matches aside, if the OP can wait a while it might be a good idea to see if FLO can come out with product. For a budget they seem to have a pretty good story to tell, Although I hate to recommend something that can’t be ridden yet. If not them, the Al rimmed and Carbon faired Zipps and Heds would be great choices and can be had pretty reasonably used, now that they aren’t current generation products.

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All the pissing matches aside, if the OP can wait a while it might be a good idea to see if FLO can come out with product. For a budget they seem to have a pretty good story to tell, Although I hate to recommend something that can’t be ridden yet. If not them, the Al rimmed and Carbon faired Zipps and Heds would be great choices and can be had pretty reasonably used, now that they aren’t current generation products.

I agree with that…With the end of season coming soon, prices will dive and new products will hit the market. Flo seems to be gaining momentum and will be interesting to see where they take it.

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I have a set of 808 FC tubular, a set of 38mm Gravity Zero carbon wheels (tubular) and a Gravity Zero Disc (tubular). My training wheels are Fulcrum 5, Dura Ace C24 & Hed Bastonge - all clinchers.

It is a pain changing wheels before a race - changing brake pads, adjusting brake width and adjusting rear dérailleur. But I’ve got used to it, and it now becomes part of my pre-race ritual in the week before the race - helps me get into the right head space.

Up to now I’ve never regretted having tubulars, I actually think the ride quality tends to be better. But I’ve just entered my first Ironman, and can now see the advantage of being able to easily carry 2 spare tubes. I’ll only carry 1 spare tubular (& a can of pitstop) and risk it, but I would always care 2 spare tubes on a long training ride.

If I had Tubular and Clincher race wheels, I think I would race short course on Tubulars and long course on Clinchers.

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As far as weight being a red herring on slowtwitch, well we don’t ride in slowtwitchistan we ride in the real world. In the real world all else being equal a lighter bike is faster, period. The only debate is how much faster and under what conditions. If weight really didn’t matter we wouldn’t be so much slower on a hilly course vs a flat one.

In the real world, we non-pro cyclists carry spares. How much lighter are tubulars if you carry a spare? Two spares?

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Like i said in my first post, what you should use depends on your race and goals. I’d go tubular for A races where you are more concerned with a very fast time than finishing at all costs. For TTs I carry nothing for longer races I carry 1 spare and pitstop.

As far as weight if you really want to use tubulars on a long race I’d use 2 TUFO 130 tires. they legitimately weigh 130 grams vs say a 80 gram tube, so the penalty is 100 grams for 2. But you also have 2 entire tires so you have the piece of mind that a big gash in a tire doesn’t ruin your day. 100 grams is about what the difference in the weight of equivalent clinchers vs tubulars is so its almost a wash. Clincher wheels are a fair bit heavier, maybe half a pound for a set.

Its not a lot unless you are someone with big bucks then spring for a Lightweight disc. A lot of Pro teams buy them for about $3000 each like Leipheimer, instead of using the discs they get for free from the sponsers.
Look at all I’ve written carefully. I don’t think more than a fraction of people should buy tubulars, but if you’re Dream is Kona and you’ve missed by a couple of minutes a few times, and you have a fair amount of disposible income, you can get a bit of speed vs clinchers.

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1A) Vittoria Crono Evo CS tubular 320 tpi (22), 21.0, 180, 0.00226, New Tire Not on the list 21mm so good for all rims except for 1, and is even more flat resistant than #3 due to a puncture proof layer.

Are you still using this tire up front? Mounted on which rim? Thanks.

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Yes but I haven’t used it much. Will use it for B2B Iron distance in a few weeks. Its a H3 wheel.

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Have you found a better tire to use with a narrow rim?

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No but not really looking for one. The crono is light and has low Crr. If I was doing short TTs where I cared only about speed and was willing to in order to chase a PR I’d use a track tire like the one at the top of AFMs latest revision, but not for a longer tri where I wouldn’t pack it in if I get a flat.

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You mean the race that Jim is going to crush you at?

:slight_smile: