As a former tubeless road tire skeptic, it is only fair that I give them their proper dues.
Ride- Six Gap Century in North Georgia, 11,300 vertical feet of climbing, road surfaces ranging from new asphalt to surface of the moon (weather, scenery and support were perfect)
Rider- 6’2", 210lb BOP triathlete wannabe road racer
Wheels- American Classic Argent Tubeless
Tires- Hutchinson Intensive 700X25, 105psi, Cafelatex sealant
Having ridden the wheels on shorter climbs in training, I was already sold on how well they handle rough surfaces and short descents. My concern was high speed braking (refer to rider specs above) and cornering. It did not take long to realize that this tire and wheel combination is far more capable than the operator.
Some highlights- fade free braking (I know that is not necessarily attributable to the tire but this is my post), a comfortable ride over the bumps and superb grip whenever I needed it. The big overall win is that I did not flat. The tires also did not lose any pressure as confirmed by pump gauge post ride. It is a beautiful thing when my memories of the day only include scenery, speed, burning legs, pb&j sandwiches and finishing.
Thought this might help anyone that is considering the switch. FYI- finish time of 8hrs, so no back door brag in sight!
The tires would have nothing to do with braking fade. Intensives have high Crr. I’ve gotten one flat in the last 10k miles or so riding a variety of racing tires with latex tubes. 3 goatheads and one staple went through the casing, but I stopped and pulled them out, and no flat. The one flat I did get, I have no idea what caused it…
My mtn bike and cyclocross bike are tubeless and by next spring the road bike will be too. I am going to go with Hutchinson Secteurs, or something else big for every day riding. Now is someone would just make 650c tubeless I could convert the tri bike too, but that will probably never happen.
**The tires would have nothing to do with braking fade. **Intensives have high Crr. I’ve gotten one flat in the last 10k miles or so riding a variety of racing tires with latex tubes. 3 goatheads and one staple went through the casing, but I stopped and pulled them out, and no flat. The one flat I did get, I have no idea what caused it…
Indeed. Brake fade is a function of the heat dissipation of the rim/pad combo, and is more of an issue of rim materials than it is tubular vs. clincher. If the rim gets too hot, the carbon composite’s resin’s strength is compromised and the rim doesn’t resist the caliper clamping force as well, resulting in “brake fade.” There may also be a failure mode relating to poor heat dissipation that affects the tire/tube, but specifically brake fade is a materials issue.
The tires would have nothing to do with braking fade. Intensives have high Crr. I’ve gotten one flat in the last 10k miles or so riding a variety of racing tires with latex tubes. 3 goatheads and one staple went through the casing, but I stopped and pulled them out, and no flat. The one flat I did get, I have no idea what caused it…
I’m with you Ron…I’m pretty much convinced that 95% of any “advantages” of tubeless configurations for road tires can be gotten with regular tires with latex tubes inside. About the only real advantage for tubeless from a flat standpoint is for those goathead/small diameter puncture type incidents, which as you’ve found out (as have I) a latex tube handles fairly well already. Large punctures (anything that leaves a hole larger than ~1-1.5mm) will take down either technology…and you’ll be swapping in a tube anyway, which ends up usually being a fairly messy proposition in a tubeless/sealant setup.
To me, the hassles/care needed for using a latex tube are much lower than what’s needed for tubeless…in fact, I’ve come to the conclusion that the major thing that needs to be taken care of is rim tape, and the Stan’s yellow tape works pretty darned well in both cases (latex tube or tubeless).
One downside to tubeless that most don’t talk about for race wheels, or any other wheel that is used infrequently, is that unless you monitor the pressure in the wheel during times they aren’t used, what will typically happen is the pressure will get low enough that a bead will “break seal” and then any sealant will dry up inside. This is the main reason I switched from DIY tubeless on my MTB years ago to latex MTB tubes (my MTB is used less frequently than my road bikes). Recently, I had the same experience with a road tubeless setup. I didn’t use the wheels for ~1 month while I was trialing a different wheelset. Came back to use the road tubeless and realized they weren’t holding air. Had to make sure I added more sealant before it was good to go.
Just something I thought I’d share that I’ve discovered during my various tubeless forays…
Veering off topic… the one issue I wonder about regarding latex MTB tubes, is that you could run low pressure because the pinch flat tendency is low… but then I wonder if the tire would tend to slide on the rim under hard braking, and rip the tube apart.
Any thoughts?
I don’t ride MTB much and my bike is ancient and sucks (no suspension either). But I’d still like to optimize rolling resistance. I’ve thought about going tubeless, but lacking an air compressor seating would be a pain, and living in a dry environment sealant wouldn’t last long. I’ve thought about just adding enough sealant to coat the tire, and letting it dry out. I’d lose the flat protection but there aren’t any thorns on the trails around town.
Veering off topic… the one issue I wonder about regarding latex MTB tubes, is that you could run low pressure because the pinch flat tendency is low… but then I wonder if the tire would tend to slide on the rim under hard braking, and rip the tube apart.
Any thoughts?
I don’t ride MTB much and my bike is ancient and sucks (no suspension either). But I’d still like to optimize rolling resistance. I’ve thought about going tubeless, but lacking an air compressor seating would be a pain, and living in a dry environment sealant wouldn’t last long. I’ve thought about just adding enough sealant to coat the tire, and letting it dry out. I’d lose the flat protection but there aren’t any thorns on the trails around town.
Latex tubes in MTBs act and feel just like butyl tubes or tubeless from a handling standpoint. The benefit is that you can run regular non-UST tires (they roll better) and don’t have to worry about a bead “burping” if you run non-UST tires with sealant. For me, it’s not so much about the lower rolling resistance (although that’s nice too), but it’s more about the ability to run lower pressures with a greatly lessened chance of pinch flatting.
Like tubeless, you can routinely run low pressures without worry of pinch flats (I’m usually in the 20-25psi range off road). I’ve NEVER pinch flatted a MTB tire with a latex tube inside of it…heck, now that I think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever had a flat of ANY sort with a latex tube inside a MTB tire =8-0…and the trails around here are fairly rocky/technical…FWIW
The pressures are REALLY low, and latex is REALLY flexible…it’s a real “win-win” IMHO.
BTW, I used to get Michelin MTB latex tubes, but they stopped selling them awhile ago (just like the road tubes). Now, it appears the best bet for sourcing them is through Geax (i.e. Vittoria MTB side).
Been riding some Hutch Fusions on Fulcrum 1’s for past 6 months, awesome, no flats and more comfortable ride than the clincher race wheels. so big-ups as well to the tubeless from me.
Don’t know if you have a 29er or not… but Ribble has the 26in tubes. Unfortunately I noticed this after I’d already bought stuff from them… free shipping >$100. They seem to be a good company and the prices are great. Bought GP4000S for $32 and Vittoria latex road tubes for $8 a couple weeks ago.
17,000km and counting on Fusion 3’s and have been able to make it home on every ride without flating. Lost some pressure in two cases that would have resulted in flats if they were not tubeless. Love the comfort and feel of tubeless, as I think there is significantly less vibration as you can ride with less pressure as pinch flats are non existent.
First choice for me is tubeless.
Good info. Never really thought about latex for MTB, but it makes sense So, what are the best/cheapest/most available latex 29er tubes (for 2.1" tires) ?
Love my Hutchinson Fusion’s. Never had a tire that would hold up two seasons (granted, this season was cut short by a dislocated shoulder, but still…) and honestly, I’m not even sure I need to replace them until after the spring. Never a single flat with tubeless (and yes, I can see some cuts, etc., but the sealant seems to do a great job). The best part of tubeless is the road feel though… really feels like tubulars.
The tires would have nothing to do with braking fade. Intensives have high Crr. I’ve gotten one flat in the last 10k miles or so riding a variety of racing tires with latex tubes. 3 goatheads and one staple went through the casing, but I stopped and pulled them out, and no flat. The one flat I did get, I have no idea what caused it…
I’m with you Ron…I’m pretty much convinced that 95% of any “advantages” of tubeless configurations for road tires can be gotten with regular tires with latex tubes inside. About the only real advantage for tubeless from a flat standpoint is for those goathead/small diameter puncture type incidents, which as you’ve found out (as have I) a latex tube handles fairly well already. Large punctures (anything that leaves a hole larger than ~1-1.5mm) will take down either technology…and you’ll be swapping in a tube anyway, which ends up usually being a fairly messy proposition in a tubeless/sealant setup.
To me, the hassles/care needed for using a latex tube are much lower than what’s needed for tubeless…in fact, I’ve come to the conclusion that the major thing that needs to be taken care of is rim tape, and the Stan’s yellow tape works pretty darned well in both cases (latex tube or tubeless).
One downside to tubeless that most don’t talk about for race wheels, or any other wheel that is used infrequently, is that unless you monitor the pressure in the wheel during times they aren’t used, what will typically happen is the pressure will get low enough that a bead will “break seal” and then any sealant will dry up inside. This is the main reason I switched from DIY tubeless on my MTB years ago to latex MTB tubes (my MTB is used less frequently than my road bikes). Recently, I had the same experience with a road tubeless setup. I didn’t use the wheels for ~1 month while I was trialing a different wheelset. Came back to use the road tubeless and realized they weren’t holding air. Had to make sure I added more sealant before it was good to go.
Just something I thought I’d share that I’ve discovered during my various tubeless forays…
I’m with you on the maintenance aspect - especially if you have more than one bike or wheel set with tubeless tires. If you only ride one bike and wheelset, it’s no big deal. At one time I had three wheel sets that were set up tubeless (cyclocross, MTB, and road), and I literally had to set a reminder in my email every 2 weeks to pump them all back up to full pressure and give them a spin. I was also living in Colorado at the time (VERY low humidity), so I had to add sealant 2-4 times per wheel per year due to evaporation. I ended up putting in 1.5 - 2x the amount of sealant each time just to stretch the interval. To me, the best argument for tubeless road is that - for a given level of flat protection - they tend to weigh less. I do not find that there is a significant overall reduction in punctures, and I have never pinch flatted a tube in my life (FWIW I normally train @ about 90psi on 700x25c tires or 75-80psi on 700x28c tires with inner tubes).
Yeah, I’m not getting the road tubeless thing for pure road use. However, I do get it for the new gravel racing scene. To me, the benefit of tubeless is not pinch flatting - this just doesn’t happen at road pressures and conditions (well, almost never). I use latex for all my pure road wheel setups.
Riding gravel and crappy roads is all about tire pressure UNTIL it’s about volume. This is where tubeless can be really nice. I’m running some 42mm 650b hetres at 40psi tubeless and they perform excellent on mixed conditions and rough rough gravel. I’ve bottomed the rim a few times, and no burping or flats.
Yeah, I’m not getting the road tubeless thing for pure road use. However, I do get it for the new gravel racing scene. To me, the benefit of tubeless is not pinch flatting - this just doesn’t happen at road pressures and conditions (well, almost never). I use latex for all my pure road wheel setups.
Riding gravel and crappy roads is all about tire pressure UNTIL it’s about volume. This is where tubeless can be really nice. I’m running some 42mm 650b hetres at 40psi tubeless and they perform excellent on mixed conditions and rough rough gravel. I’ve bottomed the rim a few times, and no burping or flats.
That is a good point. I guess I should have also added that… and this - I keep finding myself going back to tubes for most purposes. The one place I keep finding enough benefit to outweigh the cost of tubeless (hassle) is with MTB and gravel racing. For training, I don’t care - run a little higher pressure and deal with the weight of the tube (which I also put some sealant in). If I was really racing serious gravel or MTB stuff, I would do some sort of real tubeless setup. Non-tubeless tires setup tubeless on Stan’s rims are hard to beat for weight, Crr, and puncture resistance combined. My favorite CX wheels to date were Stan’s 29er disc rims on Shimano disc hubs with Michelin Mud 2’s setup tubeless. Really light, never punctured, and they rode like handmade tubulars with latex tubes.
Exactly - it sounds like we’ve come to the same conclusions…All my mtn bike wheelsets are setup tubeless for racing, but as you and Tom mentioned, it is a hassle to maintain them - ensuring the bead doesn’t break and the sealant dries up when not using them. I’ll likely put tubes in a couple of wheelsets to cut down on mainteance and only maintain the ones I’m racing.
One of my race ‘cross wheelsets is setup with stan’s rims and clement LAS’ tubeless, and they are tough to beat performance wise - I can run them in the low 20s and no burping.
Good info. Never really thought about latex for MTB, but it makes sense So, what are the best/cheapest/most available latex 29er tubes (for 2.1" tires) ?
Sure, you do. If you ride a 700C bike, well, then you’re on a 29er …
OK then…I’m not aware of any needlessly large cross section road/cross 700C tubes
Although…I know that Challenge provides latex tubes for cross purposes (and you might be able to get one of those to work…one of the advantages of latex tubes)…AND, they also have a tubular 29" MTB tire w/latex tube inside…so, that might be an avenue to pursue.
To me, the best argument for tubeless road is that - for a given level of flat protection - they tend to weigh less.
Which, IMHO (and physics backs me up on this), is a pretty weak argument…especially for the applications you say it’s best applied (i.e. CX and “gravel grinding”).
Just throw a latex tube in there and be done with it
