The majority of cycling consumers do not know where their bicycle is made or by whom. If the label says, “Brand A” they assume their is a “Brand A” factory at the Brand A headquarters in Anytown, USA.
Fact of the matter is, as we have touched upon on this forum with the likes of Martek, et al, the supply chain of where your (and my) bike is made is convoluted, cryptic and steeped in mystery.
Are bicycle companies obliged to tell you who made your bike? Where it was made? Should they be allowed to display purposely deceptive labelling such as “Designed in the USA” leaving the details of who and where it was made a mystery?
What level of disclosure do want or feel is appropriate?
Do you care if your bike is actually MADE by a company you have never, and will never hear of?
Actually, bikes are required to have a label indicating where they are made if it is not the US. And the shop is not allowed to take it off. It certainly is deceptive how some companies do it, especially if theyt have USA in their name but manufacturer off-shore, but in general the US rules are pretty good and an attentive consumer (and definitely a bike shop owner) would be able to see it.
A bit trickier are the bikes that are allowed to be called “Made in Italy” even if they were only painted there. But that has to do with sloppy Italian laws, and some quite famous manufacturers exploit that to the fullest.
"Do you care if your bike is actually MADE by a company you have never, and will never hear of? "
If an product is being advertised as being “made in USA” or “made in country XYZ” but is being made in Taiwan then it should say “made in Taiwan” on it. For some things this is not a big deal, but for many people outsourcing is a huge deal since it costs domestic jobs either in the USA or country XYZ. If a company is outsourcing and putting a “made in XYZ” rather than “made in Taiwan” then they are lying. I understand the reasons for outsourcing but lying about it might p*ss me off enough not to purchase from that company.
Regarding truth in labeling in the bicycle industry, how about some accurate weights and disclosures for components as well as bicycles?
For example, being 6’2", do I really care what a 48cm frame weighs? Yet, frame weights listed in bike mfrs’ advertising usually refers to a smaller frame size, although NEVER (to the best of my knowledge) ever disclosed as such.
The component mfrs are not much better. How much does a 10cm stem weigh? If the mfr offers an 8cm stem, guess which weight will be listed? This situation applies to seat posts, handlebars/aerobars, cranks, chainrings, cassettes - basically anything that comes in numerous sizes.
How about some accuracy when a weight is given rather than +/- 10%? I have ever weighed a component that matched its advertised weight. Is it too much to ask for a calibrated scale?
After years of working in the automotive industry, I am appalled at the lack of standards present in cycling. Not that I want cycling to be as heavily regulated as the automotive industry, mind you, just some truth in advertising would be appreciated.
Is it too much too ask?
“I am out here in deep water, and I don’t know how to swim!”
Tom, I think you’re breaking this down too far. For me, what I want is for the Brand to stand for what I associate the brand with. I have a Specialized Allez road bike and a Kestrel Talon SL tt bike. I have certain expectations of each of those brands. If they meet them, I don’t care where they make or buy their bits and pieces. If they fail, then I count it against the Brand. I left the idealistic world of “made in the USA” and/or “designed in the USA” long ago. What I want is a Specialized/Cannondale/Trek/Kestrel/ABG/etc. etc. quality product. I don’t really care if they “designed” it by looking for the best quality option mass produced in Taiwan.
“outsourcing is a huge deal since it costs domestic jobs either in the USA or country XYZ”
Sigh…outsourcing does not cost domestic jobs. It frees up resources. It’s not the corporations fault…it’s OUR fault for letting it happen. The only thing we can do now is to truly turn into a Global economy… Abolish all tariffs and import/export tax.
Heck…even John Kerry has benefitted from outsourcing. His wife nets a $50 million annual return and they have $21 million worth of homes in other countries…
As for the bikes…I don’t care what the sticker says. However, I would enjoy full disclosure upon request. I find “upper end” Asian bikes to be made very well. In my other hobby (bass guitars), the manufacturing is equal to better than American (machine) made axes. Hand built is another story…
I’m not too concerned with where it was made, although Italy has a certain romantic appeal and reputation. I must admit to being intrigued at the stories of where parts and frames and components come from and especially the story about Martek making the same frame for several bike companies.
It’s interesting, but not pivotal in the decision-making process. I want the fastest bike I can afford…
Actually, I want steroids with no side effects, and I’ll ride any old piece of junk!
I am a curious guy. I’d like to know where everything I get, have, use, drink, eat, etc. comes from. Perhaps that is not always possible, but if it is, it is very interesting to me to know how the thing I hold in my hands got to me and the steps it took to get there. I would like to know where it was designed, where its materials were mined, where the tubes came from, where they were bonded or welded, where it was painted, where it was assembled, and how it was shipped.
But I am probably not average in this regard. Most people don’t want to really know how sausage is made. But at the very least, in the USA (a truly prodigous consumer of imported goods), we should be able to know where a bike or frame was truly manufactured.
"Sigh…outsourcing does not cost domestic jobs. It frees up resources. It’s not the corporations fault…it’s OUR fault for letting it happen. " I have to say that at some point, we will have more resources freed up than we know what to do with. At that point you have raging unemployment. How did we let wages in India become a 90% differential? This is what allows for the wage arbitrage to go on. Why are corporations hiding the fact that they are outsourcing jobs to these arbitrage markets? The one thing I would agree that we have let happen or created is the expectation that everything would be dirt cheap and we reward vendors who deliver those goods (Wal*Mart).
Wow…this thread throws me for a loop. Does it really matter that something is made in the USA that much? Really? I am all for pride in my country and supporting it to the fullest but to think that because something is made in the good old US of A makes it better than being made in some Asian country most of us will never go to is absurd. Here’s my what if…
Bike is made in the USA by someone making minimum wage or better by someone who likes to ride bikes but really resents that someone somewhere is making a lot more money than them doing next to nothing. What kind of product is that person going to make?
Now jump the pond. Some guy in a sweatshop (okay it’s not likely this is really the case but for the sake of example just go with it) in Taiwan is making one quater of what the guy in the US makes. Does’t really like bikes all that much but is so incredibly thankful that he has a job that can feed his family that each and every day he does his best to make the best possible frame because he knows that to do anything less means tomorrow he could be out of a job. Replaced by someone else who can do a better job.
Who’s gonna make the frame you want to ride now? While this might not be the case it does serve to prove a point (to me anyway) that location location location is not the be all and end all for product quality. Yes there is the training of skills issue and also the quality of life/environment issue to be viewed as well…but realistically not everything that is made is North America (and I’ll include Canada so you don’t think I’m America bashing) is superior to the rest of the world. The sooner we get our heads wrapped around that fact the sooner we can start buying things based on quality and value and not emotions.
What I truly enjoy about frames or forks is the fact that the price can vary by 25% between brands A,B and C. Even though one factory made all three frames and they just got rebadged.
“Sigh…outsourcing does not cost domestic jobs. It frees up resources.”
I think that it depends on how you go about doing it. Where I am(financial software development), the guy running my division wants to outsource the entire development workload to Chinese undergrad students(they work for college credit at minimum wage). One of my “Shareholder Value” goals for the year is, specifcally, to make it possible to pass off my projects to China.
Assuming, for a moment, that myself and the hundred or so people in my department are ‘freed up’, what are we free to do?
I think that the reputation of whoever is selling the product is the most important single piece of information that you need. Some companies care more about quality than others. A good example is auto companies. No matter whether it is made in Ohio or Japan, a Honda is probably going to need fewer repairs than just about any car sold by an American car company, no matter where that car was built. If a bike company wants to sell bike X as its own, regardless of where it is made, its own reputation is on the line.
If America has outsourced so many jobs, then why is its unemployment rate so low?
Check out the link above…the Star Tribune is well-known as being one of the most liberal newspapers in the country. I know it sounds pretty darn odd.
This is NOT a liberal vs. conservative topic. Yet another issue that Kerry flubbed and will come back to haunt him. This is Al Gore, 2nd edition. The best we can hope for is Bill’s survery goes well and he smacks some sense into the idiots running the show.
“What I truly enjoy about frames or forks is the fact that the price can vary by 25% between brands A,B and C. Even though one factory made all three frames and they just got rebadged.”
This is the reason that I would probably say there should be some honesty in labeling. I’m not so concerned where the frame is made if I know it’s of a certain quality, but if I’m paying more money for a frame of the same quality, I’d like to know that. It’s not always so easy to track this stuff down by doing research since some companies might have their frames produced in more than one place, by more than one sub-contractor.
I hope my post didn’t come across as an attack. This has been on my mind a lot lately, since I just had to do a mid-year self-review and rate myself on how well I am doing at eliminating my own job.
It’s not that I think that I am unique and special(I’ll suspend my egotism for a moment), however I find it interesting to see how outsourcing is taking hold in my field. I work in an industry where people can command a high salary specifically because it is rare to find someone with both technical skill and business domain knowledge. That said, it’s kind of bizarre to hear senior management say that the technical skills are a commodity in which experience is irrelevant and domain knowledge is unimportant.
The reason for this is that anyone who works in software development knows that the business people who write the requirements are usually woefully inept in writing complete specifications, which are absolutely required in order to package up a project and ship it overseas. This is where software developers who know the business shine.
In my case, my job will probably evolve into one where I am part architect/part project manager,and I’ll deal with that as it happens. For now, it seems like the excitement over our outsourcing initiative is more due to the money we expect to save than it is over any useful projects we will deliver, because thus far, nothing that has come out of it has proven useful to the business.
what i am about to tell you is way off topic but should be valuable in your outsourcing endeavors. i work for a fortune 5 (not 500, 5) company and i led some outsourcing initiatives, as well as some consolidation initiatives. my experience has lead me to the conclusion that you never reap the cost savings that you think you will. generally speaking you end up needing double the outsourced resources that you had domestically, you have to pay for the infrastructure (pc’s, telecommunications lines, data lines, etc), as well as the physical plant (office space, etc) costs. all of this depends on how you structure your agreements but i am sure you get the gist of what i am saying.
i am confident your finance department has analyzed and reanalyzed the numbers, but trust me you will not save any where near what you think in the long run. plus losing productivity because of the time differences, which most argue is a benefit because the far east can work while we sleep. however, if there are questions they wait until someone here (us) can answer. all of which equals lost productivity, increased timelines, not to mention the communication gaps. sorry if this comes across harshly but i really think that companies should think long and hard about why they are outsourcing, and can they accomplish those goals without it.