Triathlete swimmers

Triathlon Forum
1

So, I’m a pretty decent swimmer in triathlons for my age group (45-49). In 4 triathlons in 2006 (2 sprints, 1 OD and one 70.3), I was first out of the water three times (3rd at the 70.3), and first onto the bike in all races. I come out of the water feeling relatively fresh, as evidenced by my relatively quick T1 times. A couple of weeks ago, I did 15x100 (scy) on 1:40 and held under 1:10 for all of them except #12 (1:11). Last year, I did a 2000yd TT in 25:13. I think I’ve been over 10,000yds in a week 3 or 4 times in 2006, max at about 12,000yds. I started swim training at age 26.

So, this morning I asked a top Masters swimmer in our group to give me feedback on my stroke. In short, she said my technique sucks, but a little more nicely than that. I don’t roll onto my leading arm enough, my lead arm begins the pull too soon, I drop my elbow on the catch too much, I cross over too much, I don’t push back past my hip (hand sorta slips sideways), I swim too flat and don’t clear my shoulder before recovering, and I recover too wide. Oh yeah, I swim with my head too high (water at eyebrow level), causing me to look like a shallow cup in the water, and my turn push-offs suck (think “garbage scow”). Sheesh. All true. A lot of this can be fixed by increasing my shoulder flexibility, which I’ll try to do.

What does this say about triathlon swimmers? Why are they so bad compared to Real Swimmers? It seems that they are worse at swimming compared to the bikers and runners. Is it because it is true that “it’s not about the swim”? Is there huge “free speed” available to most triathletes, myself included, without JFT?

2

I was thinking about this the other day. I’m also a good ‘triathlon’ swimmer…we are about the same level (yesterday, I did a very similar set to yours, 10 x 100 scy on 1:25, held 1:10’s.) and was first or second in my wave out of the water twice last year. But, I started to swim about 20 years younger than you. :slight_smile: I will say that a quick look at my log reveals that so far this year, I’ve swum just over 200k or about 5K a week…maybe 90 minutes a week on average…

Bottom line, triathlon swimmers suck compared to ‘real’ swimmers because most triathletes started swimming late in life AND have not had nearly as much coaching as real swimmers.

Most ‘real’ swimmers started when they were 6-10 years old and learned how to swim with a coach providing constant feedback. That’s millions of yards, and thousands of hours of technique work in a sport where technique is a much bigger determinant of success than in running or cycling. Most triathletes either taught themselves how to swim or if they were smart got some coaching. But even then, thats nothing compared to the amount of coaching someone who swam for years on a club has recieved.

3

While the swim probably has the least impact on a race, I agree that for a lot of people, there is a lot of untapped potential there.

Which is easier; going from 25’ to 20’ in the swim or 1:05 to 1:00 on the bike, or 45’ to 40’ on the run.

4

Gosh…

They could be nitpicky…

Dude, - you are a pretty good swimmer. If you can roll a bunch of 100yd repeats under 110 consistently, - that’s pretty good as a masters pools swimmer as well.

You must be doing something right mechanically, - or you would never be able to swim that fast. So, - there exists the firm possibility that your head isn’t so high, your arms don’t cross over that badly, your elbow doesn’t drop too far, your roll isn’t too bad… etc. etc…

Now you also could simply be very strong and have a really good catch and “feel” and great timing and coordination with your pull/kick/roll/recovery… There are a lot of crazy recoveries out there, and even a lot of elite swimmers can look a little odd and unorthodox. (The recovery is something that everyone notices first as it’s the thing that is most visible, - it’s also one of the things that isn’t really super important). There’s a really fast swimmer, Michael Moore, who breathes every single stroke bilaterally, and swims catch-up-stroke. He looks strange, - but he’s a sub 4:45, 500 yd swimmer…

My suggestion is to keep in mind what your friend has told you as something that might be worthwhile to examine, and take it as a positive criticism and go out and get yourself filmed and compare what the film/video shows to what she said. Hopefully, get some others to comment. You can then make a better decision as to what, - if anything, - you might like to adjust…

In a lot of ways, if it’s not broken, don’t mess with it. Perhaps you may make an adjustment with your hand entry point and it throws off your overall timing? Maybe you’ll be more technically correct, - but it’ll cause other, more damning issues…

The Australian crawl is complicated. It’s best, IMO, to set up a series of “must have” elements to the stroke and place more importance on them, - if there’s a question… For example, - having a good head position, - head down, - (head position dictates body position), - is more important than having a tense, high-elbowed, recovery, - (when your hand is in the air)… {just an example}.

Cheers,

5

Which is easier; going from 25’ to 20’ in the swim or 1:05 to 1:00 on the bike, or 45’ to 40’ on the run.
.

6

While the swim probably has the least impact on a race, I agree that for a lot of people, there is a lot of untapped potential there.

Which is easier; going from 25’ to 20’ in the swim or 1:05 to 1:00 on the bike, or 45’ to 40’ on the run.

The swim has a HUGE impact on the race. It is the only event you do fresh, and if you are a crappy swimmer, you will tire yourself out more and spend more time in the water.

Re: your question, it depends on how long you’ve been doing each one.

Coming to swimming “late in life” is a big reason most triathletes stink at swimming, BUT the real reason is that most people don’t swim enough. Everyone wants to bikebikebike or runrunrun. Nobody puts the time into swimming. 2-3 swims and 10K per week is not going to make you a better swimming. You want to get better at swimming? Triple your volume and get some technique advice. But tripling your volume with a good workout plan is going to help. Swimming is not exempt from JFT. But 10k per week is NOT JFT…

Most of the top ITU guys are very good swimmers. Rasmus Henning, for example, has no problem keeping up in workouts with the Danish national team. Most ITU swimmers could be quite competitive at the division 1 college level, which certainly is the mark of a “good swimmer.”

7

You must be doing something right mechanically, - or you would never be able to swim that fast. So, - there exists the firm possibility that your head isn’t so high, your arms don’t cross over that badly, your elbow doesn’t drop too far, your roll isn’t too bad… etc. etc…

Now you also could simply be very strong and have a really good catch and “feel” and great timing and coordination with your pull/kick/roll/recovery… There are a lot of crazy recoveries out there, and even a lot of elite swimmers can look a little odd and unorthodox. (The recovery is something that everyone notices first as it’s the thing that is most visible, - it’s also one of the things that isn’t really super important). There’s a really fast swimmer, Michael Moore, who breathes every single stroke bilaterally, and swims catch-up-stroke. He looks strange, - but he’s a sub 4:45, 500 yd swimmer…

My suggestion is to keep in mind what your friend has told you as something that might be worthwhile to examine, and take it as a positive criticism and go out and get yourself filmed and compare what the film/video shows to what she said. Hopefully, get some others to comment. You can then make a better decision as to what, - if anything, - you might like to adjust…

In a lot of ways, if it’s not broken, don’t mess with it. Perhaps you may make an adjustment with your hand entry point and it throws off your overall timing? Maybe you’ll be more technically correct, - but it’ll cause other, more damning issues…

All good advice. Funny, my first coach said he couldn’t figure out how I could go so fast with such lousy technique. As you said, I must be doing something right. I suspect I’ve got a reasonable feel for the water that makes up for other shortcomings. Also, I don’t kick at all, except for timing. I’ll work on my flexibility and keep her suggestions in mind.

Thanks for the perspective.

8

Ok so you are a really decent swimmer. But on a competitive field, you would have trouble getting out of the water with the elites. Still, if the 4 triathlons you mention had only a good regional level, it’s understandable that you were first out of the water.

If your stroke is “that” bad, you could easily improve a lot your splits if you also improve your stroke. Swimming is first: about technique; and second: strength. You have the strength, not the technique. When you master both, you will hold those 15x100 yards under 1:00. :slight_smile:

The answer to your last question is: americans are all about bike, bike, bike…

9

You want to get better at swimming? Triple your volume and get some technique advice. But tripling your volume with a good workout plan is going to help. Swimming is not exempt from JFT. But 10k per week is NOT JFT…

So, does that make sense for someone near the top of his/her age group in the swim? What am I going to get by tripling my swimming at age 48, besides sore shoulders? The guy who got onto the bike just behind me at Eagleman had the 100th best swim overall at Clearwater, and 3rd in the 45-59.

10

You are correct, that at the higher levels, the swim makes a difference, particularly ITU. But for the majority of AG triathletes, they aren’t losing too much time to almost all of their competitors (because they all suck), so it doesn’t make too much difference.

That being said, I think that with the kind of effort you mention, there are plenty of athletes who could shave a lot of time off their swim, and it would be easier than saving the same about of time on the bike or run.

11

Of all the things I am trying to learn at Masters, never swam as a kid, the number one thing I am now trying to do is keep the head down. I feel my roll, etc. works correctly with the head down. When up, things dont seem to work. Not easy to do for me. I guess during a Tri swim I am always looking up some to see others, make sure I dont get kicked, etc.

Dave

12

“What does this say about triathlon swimmers?”

I absolutely have no speed in the water. I did 1,000 yards last night (the most I swim in practice) in 19:42, which may be a PR for me. Yet, in the Accenture Chicago sprint tri last year, my swim time of 15:40 for 750 meters was in the top 15% overall.
BTW, if I could do a 15:00 (which is still crappy), I’d be happy as a clam.

13

This is what I hound my training buddies with this time of year when they all avoid the pool until February. It isn’t so much about the time savings on the swim - It’s about the cost of that particular swim to each individual during the race. In a sprint the diff between the fish and MOP’ers is a few minutes…but the cost later in the race is where I think the pool pays off.

IMO, until someone can quantify that data into hard numbers (like wind tunnel data or interval times on the run) then you’ll always hear the argument of “more time in the pool won’t buy me much on the race course”.

14

Depends on who you ask. My opinion? Yes. You are near the top, but I wouldn’t say that your swim is particularly fast in the overall scheme of things (I don’t mean that in an offensive way, just the facts). I also doubt your shoulders would get too sore if you tripled your swim volume by merely trippling your frequency. So still about 3,000 yds. per swim, only doing like 9 swims – swim everyday and twice a day two times a week. Take a break from the bike and run. Do that for about two months. I think you’d surprise yourself how much speed you’d pick up. Plus I think you find you’d be amazed at the free speed you’d get if you can hook onto a faster swimmers feet. A minute faster gain could turn into two minutes if you can suddenly draft off a guy who would have dropped you before. Improvement in swimming is really largely about frequency. Swimming almost everyday is huge in terms of developing feel for the water. I’m in the middle of a big swim block right now, doing about 60km a week, with very minimal maintenance running and biking. In only a week, I’ve already set some PB’s in the pool, despite the fact that I’m swimming so much. Give it a go. I think you’ll see immeadiate improvements in a suprisingly short amount of time if you really ramp it up. Yes, your shoulders will get a bit sore. That’s what icepacks were invented for…

15

It’s about the cost of that particular swim to each individual during the race. In a sprint the diff between the fish and MOP’ers is a few minutes…but the cost later in the race is where I think the pool pays off.

Yes, - it’s about diminishing returns. Time wise, the swim is a short part of the overall time of the overall race. If you can swim 2.5 miles right around an hour and be relaxed and not too tired, - it’s better to do that than to swim it sub 50 minutes and be too exhausted to ride a fast bike or a run a fast run.

16

What does it say about triathlon swimmers? I’ll venture to say that it says strong swimmers can get away with bad technique and still be realitively fast. Unfortunately, for reasons already stated, most triathletes are weak when it comes to swimming (starting late in life, not swimming enough).

From what I know of Ken I doubt you fit the criteria of a weak individual. I am speaking specifically of power and muscular endurance. There are plenty of very fit triathletes with no endurance or power in the muscles used for swimming because they don’t swim enough.

To relate to another thread, I’d say this is why the Vasa trainers works. It doesn’t do diddly for technique, but it does make you stronger and a strong swimmer can still post decent times even with crappy technique.

It is also, why swimming with a band may be effective for a triathlete… Makes you stronger, but doesn’t do much for technique.

I know you (Ken) mentioned one time that most of us were probably stronger than Janet Evans. I’m not sure that is really true if we are just considering swimming muscles. I bet she could kill nearly all triathletes on a Vasa trainer where technique counts for almost nothing. She IS/WAS strong in only the right places.

17

Ken,

I’ve got to disagree a little w/ Rappstar on this one. I just took a look at the results from EM (hey - I’m stuck in the Cleveland airport and have some time to kill :o) - and how your placement was (AG-wise) between yourself and the lead SB&R:

Swim = :27sec behind the leader
Bike = 13 MINUTES behind the leader
Run = 17 MINUTES behind the leader

You’re losing <30sec to the leaders on the swim and 30 MINUTES to the leaders on the bike and run. Do you think it makes sense to focus your efforts on the swim, at the sacrifice of bike and run? I don’t disagree that there’s significance in the swim, but in your case, I think that’s definitely secondary.

18

While the swim probably has the least impact on a race, I agree that for a lot of people, there is a lot of untapped potential there.

Which is easier; going from 25’ to 20’ in the swim or 1:05 to 1:00 on the bike, or 45’ to 40’ on the run.

The swim has a HUGE impact on the race. It is the only event you do fresh, and if you are a crappy swimmer, you will tire yourself out more and spend more time in the water.

Re: your question, it depends on how long you’ve been doing each one.

Coming to swimming “late in life” is a big reason most triathletes stink at swimming, BUT the real reason is that most people don’t swim enough. Everyone wants to bikebikebike or runrunrun. Nobody puts the time into swimming. 2-3 swims and 10K per week is not going to make you a better swimming. You want to get better at swimming? Triple your volume and get some technique advice. But tripling your volume with a good workout plan is going to help. Swimming is not exempt from JFT. But 10k per week is NOT JFT…

Most of the top ITU guys are very good swimmers. Rasmus Henning, for example, has no problem keeping up in workouts with the Danish national team. Most ITU swimmers could be quite competitive at the division 1 college level, which certainly is the mark of a “good swimmer.”

If you can maintain 1:10’s I wouldn’t worry too much, keep up the good work!! I’ve been swimming since age 4, and swimming technique is learned at a young age. I swam a 52 minute IMC swim without having a pool in my town for 6 years. I drove 120 km 1-2 times every ten days for 3000 to 4000 metre sessions. I still managed to go sub 2 minutes in a 200 free masters race back in 2002. Now that I live in a city with a pool, I’m hoping on going sub 50 min at IMC07 with only training 3x per week at 3 to 4K per sesssion.
Bottom line, a triathlete can became a ‘good’ swimmer, but will never match the experience learned from ex club swimmers. (My running sucks though!)
A few pointers to triathletes out there: stop swimming for an hour straight, stop doing junk miles, save the chit chat for the coffee shop and stop doing so many 25’s and 50’s repeats. To be a fast endurance swimmer you need to do repeats of 200’s, 400’s, 800’s. (i.e. one day 10-20 x 200 free , one day 4-6 x 400’s, one day 2-3 x 800’s).
My .02 cents.

19

It sounds like it was a very good critique. The things mentioned sound obvious to see so most likely she is right. I’d second what Toenail said and try to get a video of yourself and then you can see if you agree. Mistakes are hard to feel while you’re swimming but when you see your mistakes, they are easier to believe and correct. If what you need to do is tweak your stroke, then it might not take more yardage to improve even more.

20

I know you (Ken) mentioned one time that most of us were probably stronger than Janet Evans. I’m not sure that is really true if we are just considering swimming muscles. I bet she could kill nearly all triathletes on a Vasa trainer where technique counts for almost nothing. She IS/WAS strong in only the right places.

Don’t you think though, that a lot of this stuff is a moving target? I mean, - strength comes in at least a couple of forms here… how well you get a “hold” on the water. How are you able to throw your own body weight around. If Janet Evans weighs 102 lbs. and can bench press 150, - she’s going to much stronger than someone weighing 150 lbs and bench pressing 165…He could be quite strong, lightweight and also be streamlined. Even if has a dropped elbow and maybe a hand crossover, - those may be mitigated by his strength and streamlining…

The goal is to swim fast up to the point where you’re not too tired for the other events. It may not be beneficial to swim under 45 minutes instead of under an hour if you’re too tired to complete the race. If one is running for over 3 hours and riding for over 5, - there’s a good chance that trying to get the swim under an hour is a paltry ambition that will take too much of a toll in the OVERALL race; I would think that one would not want to gain 5 minutes on the leaders of the swim that would end up costing one 40 minutes on the bike… And this stuff happens, - I’ve seen it time and again…