Pure curiosity - how many of you have been beaten out of the water and also beaten on the bike, only to come back and out-run and out-transition them you end up higher in the OV standings?
At Muncie yesterday I had very nice transition times (1:59 and 1:33) and saved quite a bit on the bike for the run. Numerous people near my final ranking or below it easily out-swam me and also out-biked me (in one case being 16 minutes in front of me), BUT were smacked-down by my swift transition and blazing run times!! (Hah - I just wanted to say that being a brand new member of the MOP club - 9:32 miles aren’t blazing for most of you).
Most folks around me had 3-5 minute transitions, each, and by holding way back on the bike (18.7 avg vs a 20+ capability) I was able to do a 2:04:59 run. I even recall thinking around mile 40, “Why am I riding this easy? The answer will come to you when you’re running - just sit tight.” I’m a slow runner, but I was very proud that I could hold a 9:30 avg for the run. My Indy Mini stand-alone run time was a 2:01, so this goes to show you - the concept makes a lot of sense. I even ran a negative split (1:03 at the half-way point, 1:02 on the way back!)
I’ve been doing triathlons for almost two years now. In that time I’ve done 11 tris (5 sprints, 3 olys, 3 hims), and I’ve made up significant ground on the run every time. I could probably count on two hands (and maybe one foot) the number of people who have passed me during the run during all of those races combined. That says a little bit about my race strategy, a little bit about my run ability, and a lot about how much I suck on the swim!
Pure curiosity - how many of you have been beaten out of the water and also beaten on the bike, only to come back and out-run and out-transition them you end up higher in the OV standings?
That happened to me in almost every triathlon I did over a 15 year period of serious competition. I was always a slow swimmer. I was decent on the bike, but when we hit the ground running, not to brag, I was rarely passed in a race, and passed many others to top 5 -10 placings in just about every race I did. That pattern was so set, that it was bizarre for me to be leading a race on the bike - the few times it happened, I really did not know what to do!!
The lesson here is that this is a universal pattern at work. I say this with respect but few if any triathletes are running “fast” on the run. The run is actually the place to make REAL gains in place performance. It’s funny, people will spend thousands of dollars to buy a faster bike by getting all these areo gizmos that in the end might save about a minute - but if you can run just a few percentage points faster through the WHOLE triathlon run leg, you will be passing a lot of people.
I like Gordo’s idea - keep backing off the bike effort, until you can run strongly, the WHOLE way on the run. See how many people you pass.
I may start taking Gordo’s advice. The run is by far the weakest of my sports. I’m a pretty good cyclist and I may start backing off the bike a bit just to see how I do on the run. I have 2 more races before my A race this year so I have 2 chances to see how it works. I’m typically top 20% on the swim, top 10% on the bike, and top 40% on the run if that says anything about my abilities. However, my tri paces aren’t that far off from my standalone paces running. I guess what I’m trying to get at is that I suck at running.
Fleck…last weekend at the Peterborough Half Ironman, I had the 48th fastest swim, 23rdth fastest bike and 10th fastest run and ended up 10th overall! Now, although my swim and bike positions feel way back I was within striking distance at each point. Interesting point is that in my age group I was 7th in the swim, 3rd on the bike and 5th on the run and still won the age group. I think my transitions were the fastest in my age group though (39 and 45 seconds)…but to the orginal poster’s point, if you can swim and bike reasonably well and “not slow down” on the run, you can make up tons of ground.
However, my tri paces aren’t that far off from my standalone paces running.
Eric,
I think there in lies the problem. I say this with respect and I don’t mean to offend - You like many rec runners and triathletes have just one running speed. It’s virtually the same speed whether you are running a 5K or 20K, whether you are running fresh or just got off the bike and startes running. If you look at the better, stronger runners in running or triathlon, there is a whole range of speeds, that they can run at. Why? They train at a number of different speeds. Many rec runners and triathletes train at one speed.
It’s a bit more complicated and involved, but you may want to try mixing up the running paces a bit. One of the best and easiest things to do is to start doing 100m strides at the end of your runs. Starts with a few and work up to about 10.
No offense taken. It’s true though. I tend to have 1 running speed. Another problem is that when I ramp up my heart rate, it feels like I’m not running much faster. It may just be me though. I am concentrating on my running more and I expect to put in a huge running block from October through February this winter leading up to a marathon in February. Also, I’ll skip a bike or a swim workout without much regret, but I gotta get in pretty much every single run workout that I can. I ran 24.5 miles last week and that was my biggest run volume week in about a year. I’ve also been plagued with running injuries and now that I’ve been injury free for 7 months, I think I found the right number of factors to keep me relatively injury free.
I usually can reel in people on the run and this is from being a better runner then most. Something that may make me different from you guys here is that I go all out on the bike (I race sprints and OLYs), like it’s a Time Trial (minus an all out sprint at the end). No matter how hard I work on the bike I can get one of the best run splits of the day.
Many times (at least the transition part). I’m a weak runner, but usually have the fastest transitions in my AG, sometimes by several minutes. It’s free speed. I usually let up just a little at the end of the swim so that I can get out of the water and run well, and I really focus on my T2, because I know the faster runners will be coming for me soon…
I am concentrating on my running more and I expect to put in a huge running block from October through February this winter leading up to a marathon in February.
Eric,
I like thre idea of the running block. I think that you will surpise yourself with how this will positivly impact your running fitness. However, why the marathon? It’s not a bad goal to have as it is a bit of a carrot to get more volume of running in. The problem is that many people training for a marathon tend to slog along, again in that one running gear that they have, albeit at a higher volume of run training. As I said, this is not bad. However, if you really wanted to get serious about increasing overall run performance and speed, the 10K or even a 1/2 marathon would be a better distance to focus on. If you do the right sort of training for a life-time best 10K the running performance improvments will be more broad and substantive.
I keep pounding away at this. I hope that some are getting it. The run really is where the pot-o-gold is if you are going to take improving your performance seriously. Minor increases in running performance in a triathlon, however that is achieved, can yeild substantial improvements in ones place in the race.
I see your point. I want to do a marathon just to do a stand alone marathon. I may concentrate on a half marathon, but I’m also banking on the fact that the huge base that a marathon in February will give me will launch a great tri season for me in 2008. Also, I only do 1 run per week where I maintain a constant speed. Actually, even on my LSD runs on Sunday, my coach has me doing some longer interval work. For example, this past weekend, my LSD run was a 2 hour run. It was 60min easy, 2x(20min upbeat, 10min easy). The other runs during the week have some kind of intervals or they are shorter bricks where I am definitely picking up my pace and my heart rate a bit. I do realize that I do need to do some shorter, faster run work. I’m being very conservative this year though because my #1 goal this year to to remain injury free. I keep getting hurt and every time that I do, my run fitness goes backwards.
I have been very conservative this year and it’s paying off. I started running again after IMFL last year on Christmas day last year. I haven’t been hampered by injuries since then. It’s been nearly 7 months now and I think that’s the longest injury free period that I’ve had in my entire life. The one thing that I’ve noticed is that my body recovers quicker after runs now. Also, it doesn’t tear me up as badly. A few months ago, an 8 mile run would have me knees sore every time for 1-2 days afterwards. Now, my knees can handle the pounding and I only have pain after 10+ mile runs every once in awhile. Once I get to 9+ months or more injury free, I’ll start doing more speed work. My problem has been that I’ve always wanted the icing, but I had bad cake. I’m working on getting good cake now.
I know for myself anyway, I am a very weak runner. I was a competitive swimmer in high-school and have been riding for along time, but running is one of my least favorite things in the world. Every race I go to I am one of the first swimmers out of the water, do ok on the bike, and then lose a bunch of ground on the run, but the way I look at it, most people are slower in the swim and faster in the run, so it kinda becomes a wash, and either way I am having a blast!
Though its probably a reflection of how poorly I bike, I tend to pass a ton of people during the run. During the run, I try to count how many people I pass versus how many people pass me. In a typical season, I’ll pass hundereds of people during the run, and maybe get passed 2 or 3 times. When you race this way, at least you always finish on a high; I like this alternative to being a monster on the bike and getting passed during the run. The good triathletes, however, tend to be pretty good at all 3 sports and are able to bike pretty hard, and still run hard.
I certainly agree with most of your thoughts on this issue. It does however, depend on the race, length, individual talents, and the competition.
Back in the old days when I was actually trying to be competitive I was a bit more out of the Mike Pigg mold. My run is and has been my relative weakness due to many factors including biomechanics, build, etc. So, like Pigg I tried to rip the legs off my age group competition on the bike. So either, they had to try to go with me, in which case their run was severely compromised; or, they leg me go and risked never seeing me again. This worked well regionally age group wise. It has also worked for Pigg as a pro (not that he was a slouch runner, but it was a relative weakness). I think that strategy is much more difficult at longer races, although, the last three Hawii Ironman winners have deployed that strategy to some degree.
I always had/have transitions among the fastest in the field - It is “free” speed. One minute faster in transitions in a sprint race is the equivelent of 20 secs faster per mile running - how much track time and injury exposure would it take to get that much faster!? I was one of the one of the 1st in this region to race a speedo the whole way (still do but that is another thread).
All that said, my run is a limiter and I am trying to impove it.