Training with VO2max and LT data

Triathlon Forum
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Let’s talk a little about scientific training:

I recenlty participated in a cycling TT study. The TT was a hilly (grades up to ~14%) 30km. All subjects were max tested (power and VO2) prior to the study.

My cylcing VO2max turned out to be 79.6ml/kg*min and my max power was at 490W. During my best TT I averaged a norm power of 374W for 47:44min.

When I look at the data of the various participants I notice variation in the % of VO2max the people could sustain during the entire ride. All people rode hard, this was reflected by their heart rate percentage of the maximum. Some people could consume up to 90+ % of their VO2max during the ride. I sustainained approx. 59ml/kg*min. That’s only about 74% of my VO2max.

Here’s my question: Let’s have two athletes. Both training for Half IM and IM distance.

athlete #1: low VO2max, high LT (relative, as percentage of VO2max)

athlete #2: high VO2max, low LT (relative, as percentage of VO2max)

how would you train those two differenty? Or would you train them the same since research indicates that there is a strong correlation between LT and years of experience in the sport?

Does anybody have VO2max and LT data they want to share, would be nice to have some data of an athlete who collected those measurements over a couple of years. If you can present longitudinal data, how did you train between data1 and data2, data2 and data3?

All thoughts are greatly appreciated. Yet, it would be nice if your answer to the question can be backed up by research.

thanks!

Daniel

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Daniel, you’re a hoss! Hopefully, this thread will set new records of interest and productive comments…thanks for putting up your numbers!

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The athlete with the highest power at LT wins every time.

High VO, low LT loses to Low VO, high LT.

Power at LT rules, and accounts for over 90% of the variation in race performance across athletes – trained and untrained.

VO2max is largely determined at birth. LT is not, and that’s why we still train and race to see who is fastest.

4

The athlete with the highest power at LT wins every time.

Agree.

High VO, low LT loses to Low VO, high LT.

Disagree. Let’s use the following number: Athlete A has a VO2max of 65 and a LT of 90%. Athlete B has a VO2max of 75 and a LT of 70%. Calculate the numbers and you will see that the Athlete A has a VO @ LT of 58.5 while Athlete B has a VO @ LT of 52.5.

I just realized that maybe there is a misunderstanding about the terms I’ve used. With low LT I meant a low percentage of the VO2max and with the high LT I referred to the relative value of the VO2max. I will edit my first post to avoid misunderstanding. After all, it always helps to talk about the same when ‘arguing’. sorry about that.

Power at LT rules, and accounts for over 90% of the variation in race performance across athletes – trained and untrained.

What do you believe are the remaining 10%?

VO2max is largely determined at birth. LT is not, and that’s why we still train and race to see who is fastest.

Disagree to some extend. Last year I tested a VO2max of 75 on the treadmill. This year I tested 79.6ml/kg*min cycling. I did NOT change my body weight, thus comparable. I understand that we shouldn’t compare across different different activites. Yet I take the words of many people that running values are usually higher than cycling, or equal. I know, not very scientific, but I make the assuption that I increased my VO2max within the last year of training.

If I kept my relative LT the same, let’s say e.g 70%, then I have an increase of 3.22ml/kg*min, which I believe is significant.

5

“Athlete A has a VO2max of 65 and a LT of 90%. Athlete B has a VO2max of 75 and a LT of 70%. Calculate the numbers and you will see that the Athlete A has a VO @ LT of 58.5 while Athlete B has a VO @ LT of 52.5.”

LT is stated as “power output at lactate concentration of x”, not as a % of VO2max. LT is also commonly misstated as some % of max HR. To restate: LT is measured in terms of power output.

Besides, it is entirely possible for one athlete to be riding at 58.5 liters/minute of oxygen uptake, and another at 52.5, and the athlete with the lower oxygen uptake could be putting out more power (this is less likely to be the case on the bike as it is on the run, though). Oxygen uptake is one determinate of power at LT, but not the only one. Efficiency, economy, neuromuscular factors and other things come into play for power generation.

“What do you believe are the remaining 10%?”

Things like fatigue resistance (not well understood), mental fortitude (winners never quit), tactics, nutrition/hydration, body composition (power/weight ratio), etc. All the little details that matter at the margin, and that separate champions from almost-champions. When Gebrselassie nipped Tergat at the wire, it was those 10% things that made the difference. But, it’s that 90% thing that separates me from Peter Reid.

“but I make the assuption that I increased my VO2max within the last year of training.”

Sure, it goes up. Just not very much once you’re reasonably well trained. A total couch potato might see a 30% increase in VO2max, but an active and engaged endurance athlete might accomplish only 5% or so*. On the other hand, power (or pace) at LT is highly trainable, even among already active athletes. People can see 10+ years of steady improvement in power at LT. It’s been reported (by Coyle) that, as Lance Armstrong’s power at LT has risen steadily during his career, his VO2max has actually slipped down a little. Not surprising, since VO2max declines with age after our late 20’s.

*So, what I really should have said is, “The upper limit of VO2max is largely determined by genetics, and is readily attainable through normal training.”

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LT is stated as “power output at lactate concentration of x”, not as a % of VO2max. LT is also commonly misstated as some % of max HR. To restate: LT is measured in terms of power output.

I understand that you can’t define LT in terms of % HR since HR isn’t the only factor affecting VO2 (Fick’s eq. VO2 = HR x SV x aVO2diff). Yet, LT occurs at some point and this point is measurable in terms of O2 consumption. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but couldn’t we track an athlete’s progress in terms of the O2 consumption he can sustain (% of VO2max) over a given workload, e.g. TT. Of course, one can also use the power outputs.

The reason I used % of VO2max is because of the great differences I saw among the various cyclist. You could also think it in terms of % of PowerMax a person can sustain. Why can some people sustain a greater percentage of their max?

It’s just kind of funny to me that we have all those scientific tools, yet I don’t see much research about in terms their use with training. Based on VO2max and “% of max sustainable” info, how do you think people should train?

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Julian you said Vo2max decreases after our late 20’s, right? Would you say it increases as you grow? I’ve been training for a little over a year and a half now, and only recently I’ve seen some visible changes in my body (ie started getting some more muscle). This is probably combined with a growth spreat I recently had in which I grew like 3 cm over the past 2 months. Would you say this, training aside, can affect one’s vo2? I’m hoping I still have 6-9 cm to grow, so would that change anything?*

I had my vo2 tested at the beginning of the season, after almost a month completely off followed by 2 easy weeks of swimming and one run (didn’t a lot because of knee problems). It was at around 60 ml/kg/min (of oxygen). Is it possible to predict what my vo2 will be in say 4-5 years of training (and hopefully growing)?

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This is a good question. For good answers you should try the Gordo forum. This website is not the place for discussing training. This site focues on the degrees of your seatpost (72-75 not good, 76-78 good, more than 78 is cool), Bush and a plethora of bike and gear suppliers implementing direct marketing techniques of the information age. This is why your post has nearly no replies, whilst Tom riding and advertising Litespeed is a hot topic.

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You’re an elite athlete, right? So why does an elite athlete needs to post about training in this forum? You either have a coach that can answer your questions or should have a coach that answers your questions :slight_smile:

Paulo

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The only good thing in gordo’s forum is the presence of Dr. Coggan there, or at least the presence of Dr. Coggan using his real name :wink:

But the rest are just people that practice the training gospel according to Gordon Byrn, which is not interesting at all. In here you get a lot more knowledgable people participating. And yes, that includes Rip too :slight_smile:

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hi smartasscoach,

elite athlete? would be nice, but I’m just in my second season of triathlon. Still have lots to learn, need to improve my running and find my “A” race where I don’t get stung by jellyfish and crash on the bike :frowning:

I study exercise science and train myself. I know that there are more people on Gordo’s site that talk about training. But I also followed the discussion in the “PC vs. Drills” thread and thought that it would be nice to discuss another physiology topic with them. That’s all.

So as a smartasscoach, I’m sure you have your opinion about training. Let’s hear.

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VO2 max is a relative number as it takes body mass into account, you can see this by looking at the units. It is ml of oxygen per kg of body weight per minute. Since you are still growing and gaining weight, I would say there is no way to accurately estimate it. Of course it’s better to have a greater VO2max, but the really thing that counts is the maximum amount of oxygen you can consume during a sustained effort. Plus there are many other factors that determine performance. Capillary density (amount of capillaries per volume unit), mitochondrial density, enzyme concentrations, ability to clear lactate, substrate utilization, etc.

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With that VO2Max number you have elite potential, but you already know that :slight_smile: What kind of swimming times do you do, in the pool? And running? What about height and weight? :-)))

As for the questions you posed, you know the answers, you’re just trying to stir up things a bit. And like I said in the PC’s thread, coaching is a scientific-based activity, but it’s not science. So science can help to devise training methods or to help explain the responses, but it can’t, or it’s too difficult, to validate training methods. So you won’t find many papers saying this or that training method is better.

Also note this… I’m not A smart ass coach… I’m THE smartasscoach… there is a difference :slight_smile:

Paulo

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"The athlete with the highest power at LT wins every time. "

True, but given that LT is more trainable, I would rather be the guy with the higher V02 max and work to get the LT up than the other way around.

Joel

www.CompetitionZone.com

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Exactly. That’s why VO2Max tests are so useful for talent detection.

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"…yet I don’t see much research about in terms their use with training. Based on VO2max and “% of max sustainable” info, how do you think people should train? "

There’s lots of research. Power should be the basis of bike training. Power wins races, not HR levels or oxygen uptake. As far as how to train with power, and what power ranges make sense for training, start with the reading list at http://www.midweekclub.com/powerFAQ.htm. See also http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411.html and follow the various links.

For running, pace is the ultimate gauge of effort, not HR. Daniels Running Formula is the best treatment of training on pace that I have read.

"Why can some people sustain a greater percentage of their max? "

Genetics and training. But again, just because their % of max is high doesn’t mean they are the fastest athlete. A typical well-trained athlete can (with proper hydration and carb intake) sustain an LT effort for about 3 hours (classic studies by Coyle and Coggan). The more fit athlete will push their LT power up to an ever-higher fraction of power at VO2max.

Now, I would point out that this is the “real” definition of LT, not the bastardized version in popular books and magazine articles. 1 mmol increase in lactate above baseline (not “30 minute all-out time trial”).

"Please correct me if I’m wrong, but couldn’t we track an athlete’s progress in terms of the O2 consumption he can sustain (% of VO2max) over a given workload, e.g. TT. Of course, one can also use the power outputs. "

Yes, we could track an athlete’s progress that way, but it is expensive and cumbersome, and it tells you no more information than to simply test the athlete’s power from time to time over a given effort of a few tens of minutes (in fact, it tells you less). Do, say, a 40k race once in a while, or a standard periodic workout like 2x 20 minutes. Measure power and you are measuring all you need to know about progress.

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"Julian you said Vo2max decreases after our late 20’s, right? Would you say it increases as you grow? I’ve been training for a little over a year and a half now, and only recently I’ve seen some visible changes in my body (ie started getting some more muscle). This is probably combined with a growth spreat I recently had in which I grew like 3 cm over the past 2 months. Would you say this, training aside, can affect one’s vo2? I’m hoping I still have 6-9 cm to grow, so would that change anything?* "

I recall that it reaches what it’s going to reach at “adulthood”, but I forget how “adulthood” is defined. Over age 18 I guess…?

“I had my vo2 tested at the beginning of the season, after almost a month completely off followed by 2 easy weeks of swimming and one run (didn’t a lot because of knee problems). It was at around 60 ml/kg/min (of oxygen). Is it possible to predict what my vo2 will be in say 4-5 years of training (and hopefully growing)?”

You can’t predict, but it might have been on the low side due to your training break. Don’t let your VO2max number get into your head. The world-record in the marathon was held for almost a decade by a guy with probably the lowest VO2max ever measured in an elite runner. Just worry about how fast your race times are getting.

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"The athlete with the highest power at LT wins every time. "

True, but given that LT is more trainable, I would rather be the guy with the higher V02 max and work to get the LT up than the other way around.

Joel

www.CompetitionZone.com
Yup – like Coggan says: There are only three proven ways to endurance sport success. Choose good parents, train lots, and EPO. Of the three, the first would be the one you’d want to start with.

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Even the third one is of no use if the other two criteria are not met.

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The only good thing in gordo’s forum is the presence of Dr. Coggan there, or at least the presence of Dr. Coggan using his real name :wink:

But the rest are just people that practice the training gospel according to Gordon Byrn, which is not interesting at all. In here you get a lot more knowledgable people participating. And yes, that includes Rip too :slight_smile:

Ha! Did you catch the little row I started with Scott Molina over there? Gordo and Scott are very smart people, and have a terrific training approach for the high-volume athlete looking to break through to the top of their category. But, like you say, a high-volume program is pretty simple: big miles at solid, steady paces.

I think that the training program of the time-restricted athlete is far more interesting. It has many more little puzzles to solve. Those puzzles are best solved with a solid grounding in first principles.