Myself and another former collegiate swimmer were teaching a stroke clinic for our local triathlon club. Most of the people (formerly non-swimmers) had relied heavily on TI and were making suggestions regarding form and technique that were in total contradiction to the way most competitive (aka fast) swimmers learn to swim.
After that clinic (and further reading) we came away with the impression that TI is great for non swimmers who want to be less tired when they get on the bike, but it’s not going to ever put you in the top 10 out of the water.
I am curious if there are any of you from serious swimming backgrounds that changed your swimming as a result of TI and think of it as a vast improvement. Perhaps you can help me distill some transferable skills amidst the “zen of swimming” and “be one with the water” TI comments.
thanks
japple
BTW I realize this is prolly a rehash of previous threads…
You asked for opinions from real swimmers. but I’ll answer anyway. I started w/ TI, at the very beginning level late last year. I really struggled, and spent months just to get so I could swim a 25. Only when I got some ‘real swimmer’ instruction did things start to improve. Why? Because TI form absolutely sinks me. I need a more aggressive way of swimming to stay high enough in the water, things that TI would call old school. TI literally leaves my upper body entirely underwater, making it a real challenge to roll for air.
I don’t blame TI… I know of many really good swimmers who follow that approach. Just didn’t work well for me.
I recently purchased their book and DVD. Without going to a clinic, I don’t see how I can get into it much. It seems really mechanical. I think I will try to glean a few points out of on balance and move on.
That TI article is Terry Laughlin’s response to three articles written by Sheila Taormina. He refers with a link to the propulsion article, but also at the slowtwitch swimcenter site it is worthwhile to read her other two articles – “Sheila Taormina’s swim tip” (3.8.02) and “The muscles used in freestyle” (4.21.02). These two, plus the propulsion article, provide a look into technique radically different than the TI approach. Of course, I can’t make ANY of it from either side work effectively for me, but I read it all because it fuels my rich fantasy world wherein I morph into a truly accomplished swimmer!
I was a sprinter in High school and college – 50/100 free. All of my speed came from being high in the water, almost out of it, with a huge kick.
That just doesn’t work for anything over a real mini-distance tri. TI makes me many seconds faster per 100m for any swim over a few minutes. Swimming high takes too much power for me to sustain.
Now a middle or long distance college swimmer might have a different experience, sinces/he may have been able to swim high for 500m or more anyway.
I didn’t swim on college but I’ve used the total immersion book and DVD to get myself to be one of the top ten swimmers out of the water at triathlons.
The total immersion book and video gave me my overall idea of what freestyle swimming is.
I’ll go ahead and put forth that being a good swimmer and being a good coach are related but separate things. How an adult with four hours a week leanrs to swim and how a kid of ten years old with 14 hours a week learn to swim are totally separate things.
I was a pretty good basketball player but I don’t think I’d be a good coach without lots of coaching education.
Luckily there’s lots of stuff around. ASCA has a good series available.
6 yrs extensive swim racing as a kid (1970’s); took off 15 years and started tri, did fine on swimming. Then wanted to progress and tried TI (before it was all glide emphaiss…it has changed a lot since it was started) that seemed fine (1990), then took another 10 years off and ramped back up the swimming. Tried some stoke sork wit the “new” TI (2002) it totally trashed my swimming. I got down to 11 stokes per length (meters) and everyone said I looked beuatiful…swim times stayed the same despite lots more training. Blew off TI and saw some improvement. This years went to Kayak/propulsion focus, saw times drop dramatically.
Net:net (for me) - TI didn’t work for me. It seems to be good for the true newbie as a method to think about swimming, which is important. Also note that TI has changed quite a bit over the years. The vocabulary is different now from only 3 years ago. It is a business and a packaged solution, which is great for what it is.
Two thoughts I have on it are: Read Dan Empfields excellent and insightful article on this site called “The High Cost of Good Form.” He makes some very interesting observations about efficiency and fitness. I agree with the concept he expresses in there and believe it has a serisous impact on Total Immersion techniques. Basically, the faster you go, the fitter you are, the more efficient you can become. He uses an aircraft as an analogy and I think that is a good one. check out Dan’s article. I have debated the Total Immersion methodology ad nauseum with Doug Stern and Sheila Taormina. Sheila is a three time Olympian, Gold medal swimmer and current Triathlon World Champion. Doug is a highly expereinced swim coach and triathlete who is a frequent contributor to this forum. To a degree, both of them have made observations that are at once critical of and supportive of T.I. methodology. It isn’t all “good” and it isn’t all “bad”. It may be better than nothing.
I found the drills very difficult to do and largely unproductive, but I am a terrible swimmer and would rather just go for a run or a bike ride. If I had the time and (really) motivation to dedicate myself to the pool I wager the T.I. drills would certainly help. But I don’t.
Only swim the morning of the race. I’ve been training like this for many years. I have NO swim background, other then I was “saved” by a friend when I was 8 years old off the bottom of a swimming pool, just before I drowned. I an above average swimmer in my age group, not fast but better hen 50%. I swim train the morning of the race. I swim to the first bouy to see what direction I’m “curving” that day. I then adjust my stroke to compensate for the curve so I swim a straight line.
I’ve not been in a pool since last July with a race tomorrow morning at 8:30. I’ll swim train at 8:10. That should about do it!! When I did my IM races I swam 3 times for 3 miles each time to train…that was plenty. I finished in 1:16 each time.
I think sometimes things are way over analyzed. I do lots of swim visualization…I believe it works for me!
One as a former swim coach some, not all, of the principles of TI are used to teach swimming today, but face it w/out strong propulsion you get no where. It’s just not called TI at the club level.
Two as a former swimmer, sprinter turned distance swimmer, I find that again some TI stuff works into my swimming some doesn’t.
Third after taking 8 years out of the pool I’m close to being where I was. Got there though muscle memory and some stroke help from Cafe Lactate of this board. And 4-5k per week of swimming.
Fourth I’ve worked a TI clinic. Good stuff for beginners but the faster advanced swimmers already were swimming efficiently so no real benefit to them.
Finally one clinic, one video tape etc isn’t going to turn a poor swimmer into a FOP swimmer. There are a few exceptions but had those people swam as a kid they would have been good swimmers anyway.
Most people need lots of hands on time with a stroke coach, the overwhelming majority of people picking up swimming for triathlon as adults do not have the technical experience or expertise to teach themselves toswim fast. Swimming is too technical for a lay person to pick it up.
I know lots of guys who race day train - they’re always pretty proud of themselves about it… And it works for them too, 'cause all they want to do is get through the swim.
So you come out of the water at 1:16 and I’ve been on my bike for 20 minutes. That’s alot of time to make up. My original post was trying to figure out if TI can help some of the people I train with make up that deficiit - and I am not convinced that it can.
In short, should I recommend that if people really want to push for the hour mark in an IM swim that they should bag TI and focus on "old school’ (i.e. fast) form ? This is tough with all the marketing and hooplah surrounding TI and support from people who just want to get through the swim.
Ther is some swimming research I remember reading looking at the 1984 Olympic trials at the distance events. The thing that seperated those who made the team and those who did not were:
the swimmers who did not make the team increased stroke rate in the second half of the events. Stroke length either stayed the same or decreased.
The swimmers who did make the team increased stroke length and had a small increase in stroke rate.
recommend that they find someone who is knowledgable in looking at their stroke and finding the flaws and correcting them.
I’d say as you become a better swimmer TI is less relevant and learning how to move the most water per stroke is more relevant. If you want to swim, say 54-55 min, you need to be efficient and have good propulsion. If swimming 1:16 is ok then you have no option but to go for being efficient within your own stroke, b/c your not moving much water at all.
I’ll also say that those who do no swim training othe than the race are neither efficient or propulsive. Efficiency is developed through training. No training = no efficiency.
This has been my impression too - that those who learned to swim at an early age when the effects imprinting on muslce memory are much more significant have an advantage that may be insurmountable for those picking it up late in life.
That being said (and this kills the purist in me) the 10 hours a week necessary to really improve swimming might be better spent on the bike or run.
I haven’t used the newest TI, but I can say that the 1997 version helped me a lot. I was just getting started in triathlon and was just an ok swimmer. In 1997 I swam a 28:00 1.5k. That winter I ordered the TI and swam 2-3 times a week doing the drills. The next summer I swam 22min in the same race. I can also guarantee I expended less energy in the 22min effort. It wasn’t going to make me a top 10 swimmer but that wasn’t my goal. I was more interested in being in the top 10 overall.
recommend that they find someone who is knowledgable in looking at their stroke and finding the flaws and correcting them.
Yeah, that’s what we were trying with this stroke clinic we held (myself and another former collegiate and open water swimmer with coaching experience). We kept having arguments when we suggested technique and stroke corrections - 'cause they were contrary to what (they thought) TI taught them.
I think it will be helpful to figure out what is really transferable between TI and competitive swimming and focus on that. But the whole “swim with yoru head and chest down” thing… I just don’t get it.
’ the whole “swim with your head and chest down” thing… I just don’t get it"
If you’d ever seen my dad swim you would understand. He is unbelievably bad (60min/mile). His feet are probably two feet below his head while he’s swimming, about as vertical as you can get. Somethings that are key to swimming fast are so second nature to competitive swimmers that they don’t even think about them. You most likely mastered these principles at age 5, and haven’t thought about them since.