I did 3 tri’s last year (2 Oly and 1 IM) and rode with a pretty steep seat angle. A week a go I paid $250 for a high tech fit from a former road pro. He moved me way back on the rails. I am on a P3 aluminum and was ~4 cm in front of the BB and now I am 4 cm back. He has a lot of experience with Tri fits so I trust(ed) him but am a little nervous about spending months training on this fit to have to change back 1/2 way through the year.
Is there a too steep? I am sure Dan has written a few articles about too shallow, but is there too steep?
I probably did not give enough info and people will porbably blast me, but I am looking for some constructive feedback if any is available.
Too steep mostly leads to handling issues I think. Too much weight on the front end of your bike leads to twitchy steering (although that depends on the bike and its steering geometry too).
Depending on your background, you might have developed your muscles differently; for the roadies, a lot of time riding on a road bike leads to a slightly more shallow position that is more in line with what they are used to. The demands of a triathlon vs a road race are also different, since you don’t have to run after a bike race.
Depends. Are you more comfortable? Are you producing more power? Are you generating less drag? has this caused/cured any knee or hip problems?
not to sound overly critical of your post, but only knowing that your seat was moved 8cm does not tell us alot. The only thing that I can surmise is that you trust the collective knowlege of a bunch of internet strangers with very limited information over a professional whom you just paid.
I feel you. I paid for a fit and felt like Tom put me up way too high and went against all ST by adding gasp 2cm of height to my front end. Of course this was bad and needed to be resolved, and of course, my power went up noticably and my legs/back felt much better going on to the run, but the added height still bothers me.
4cm in front of the BB is probably too steep on an aluminium P3 but it depends on the size. Some of the alu P3s had a 73 degree HT angle, so if you ride it very steep the handling can be very twitchy. I think the pro cyclists like the 73* HT angle on their TT bikes because they like fast handling, but it can be a bit much for triathletes especially if you are riding it so steep.
For comparison, the 73* HT angle is the standard angle for road frames but not so much for tri frames.
Hmmm. Sometimes the (road) apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
The first triathlon specific bikes, even the ones designed by Dan Empfiled and Ralph Ray, actually toyed with *90 degree *seat tube angles- much steeper than is currently regarded as *de rigueur *at 78 degrees. The first production Quintana Roos, such as the Superform frameset, were 80 degrees.
Steep seat angle in and of itslef doesn;t create handling issues, it is a steep angle combined with a front end geometry that is not optimized for a steep posture that leads to trouble. In other words, put a forward bending seatpost on a road bike to get the center of your saddle to 78 degrees and you have now shortened your top tube considerably and put a lot of rider weight on the handlebars potentially affecting steering to the more (too…) responsive.
Now, the proof is in the pudding. If you have some long femur bones and a matching long torso your fitter may have done you a service by sending you back in the saddle. There may be some penalty transitioning from bike to run, but *may *is the key word. We often call out the Garside/Doran study to “prove” better run off a steep bike but in fairness there are studies that dispute that. I still buy Dan’s interpretation of Garside- I run faster and more comfrotably off my 80 degree effective seat angle P3C.
What’s good for the goose may not be good for the gander however, and I would courteously defer to the sagacious insight of your fitter before taking the word of some internet jobaffalo like myself. My one reservation is that this sounds like a very polaric swing from one extreme to another. Ultimately, I also respect your instincts and gut regarding the fit.
From my own experience of moving my saddle back 6cm on a P2SL to conform to UCI rules for Nationals I can say that you really should decide if its right fo ryou very soon. Riding in an aero position with the saddle behind the BB 4cm takes a lot of new muscle recruitment to make the most of it and you probably will feel very weak and fatigue quickly at first. But it can be a very aero position and my coach believes it utilizes muscles that are not used in a “tri” set-up that may be beneficial (more power).
I have yet to go on the lasers (or dartfish) to check some angles that may shed more light on this set-up like hip angle opennes, etc. I hope to do that very, very soon.
I thought my P2SL handled fine the year the seat was 76 to 78degrees. But now that its back like yours I can truly rail corners staying on the clip-ons. And maybe not that smartest thing, but cornering at 45+mph on a descent tucked on the bars is fine and even quite fun.
Ray
If you have some long femur bones and a matching long torso your fitter may have done you a service by sending you back in the saddle.
That’s good to hear.
I was recently got fitted on my tri bike because because I couldn’t ride with the power that I knew I should. The guy who did the fitting said I had long femurs so he put me just behind the BB. It’s certainly more comfy and smoothed out my pedaling. I’ll see how it translates when I get outside.
There is no such thing as “too steep” or “too shallow” - just do what works best for you. Listen to your body. It it feels right it probably is and if it feels wrong then vice versa. For myself btw, I stopped riding past about 76 degrees due to neck and crotch discomfort.
Riding in an aero position with the saddle behind the BB 4cm takes a lot of new muscle recruitment to make the most of it and you probably will feel very weak and fatigue quickly at first. But it can be a very aero position and my coach believes it utilizes muscles that are not used in a “tri” set-up that may be beneficial (more power).
How long would you say that it takes to retrain the muscles when you change positions?
I had a fitting done at the end of last year that definitely moved me forward and got me much lower. My FTP had stayed pretty constant for the last few months even when I missed several workouts in the week. After the fitting I definitely missed more than a few workouts due to a running injury but I missed almost a full 3 weeks at the end of last season and came back with the same FTP after just a week or two of riding. It never occurred to me that my loss of power might be related to my position change until I read this post. I guess I hadn’t thought about it much because my speeds with the more aero position have been as good or better even with less power. BUT when I do indoor trainer rides I just can’t match the same power I was easily producing before my new fit. Interesting. I guess speed is what really matters but I would think that the more aero position would produce faster speeds primarily on flatter courses while better power generation would be more important for hilly rides.
When is steep too steep? 82 degrees? 84 degrees? Is it a function of a bike’s geometry and handling? Is it a function of sacrificing more in power than you yield in aerodynamic benefit?
My previous bike setup was 5cm in front of the bb on a Zipp 2001. My new ride has me near the bb, though I have not measured, maybe 1-2cm in front on a 596. Definately can tell a difference from a pedaling perspective. Speed…don’t know yet, as the hips are still getting used to the position as I’m further back as well as lower and stretched further out in front.
Riding in an aero position with the saddle behind the BB 4cm takes a lot of new muscle recruitment to make the most of it and you probably will feel very weak and fatigue quickly at first. But it can be a very aero position and my coach believes it utilizes muscles that are not used in a “tri” set-up that may be beneficial (more power).
How long would you say that it takes to retrain the muscles when you change positions?
I had a fitting done at the end of last year that definitely moved me forward and got me much lower. My FTP had stayed pretty constant for the last few months even when I missed several workouts in the week. After the fitting I definitely missed more than a few workouts due to a running injury but I missed almost a full 3 weeks at the end of last season and came back with the same FTP after just a week or two of riding. It never occurred to me that my loss of power might be related to my position change until I read this post. I guess I hadn’t thought about it much because my speeds with the more aero position have been as good or better even with less power. BUT when I do indoor trainer rides I just can’t match the same power I was easily producing before my new fit. Interesting. I guess speed is what really matters but I would think that the more aero position would produce faster speeds primarily on flatter courses while better power generation would be more important for hilly rides.
Wow, thats the question. When are you fully adapted? I cannot quantify anything really on race results because I am “back to cycling” and probably just getting faster. But for certain I am faster in this position in all races on the same course by a significant margin. The other problem is that I dont do A races with my PT, I only train with it. also complicating matters is I raised my saddle a lot at about the same time. I mean a LOT!! my fit was way off and i had hip pain and knee pain. All sorted in the winter of 2008 for last seasons racing.
But from a 20 minute test on my road bike and my TT bike within a month of each other and a lot of shorter tests lately it appears that I am only 20 watts lower on my TT bike than my road bike and I am fine with that.
Sorry, I am doing a miserable job of answering your question. I am ever evolving and working on any limiter I think I may have. Maybe its weak hip flexors or core or poor form and arching my back or rotating my hips when I get tired or not dropping my heel enough. So for this I feel like I am getting this “BACK” position down, but it still doesnt feel as good or powerful as it should. But my race results and speed vs power output have been good since changing so maybe I am just never happy.
How long to adapt? Not long, but if you only ride your TT bike in races you’ll never adapt.
Also realize that if your TT bike has you putting out less power, but riding at the same speed that may be a good tradeoff because you’ll probably run better.
Also realize that if your TT bike has you putting out less power, but riding at the same speed that may be a good tradeoff because you’ll probably run better.
Exactly why I never thought about it I guess. I pulled some ride data just for comparison purposes. Each ride was on the same course with similar conditions. I wasn’t pushing (at all) on any of the rides, just out for a steady cruise of 49 miles. The first was on my old road bike set up with clip ons. The 2nd was on the same bike a few weeks after my position adjustment. The 3rd was on my new tri bike that hasn’t really had the fitting dialed in yet.
Ride 1 (December): 141 watts for avg speed of 16.0 mph
Ride 2 (January): 151 watts for avg speed of 16.4 mph
Ride 3 (February):163 watts for avg speed of 17.4 mph
So I guess my power hasn’t really gone down too much in reality though none of these efforts were going hard so not sure what to take away other than 1 position change got me 0.4 mph gain while a new bike got me a full mph for the 10 watt increase. I’m actually getting a fitting for the tri bike this weekend so perhaps I will see a more significant difference in a few weeks.