To all forum readers;

Triathlon Forum
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Readers of this thread.

As a rule we try to stay off of message boards because we believe the purpose is to allow an open exchange among consumers. Unfortunately, in this case an individual has taken the opportunity to disparage not only Serotta and all of its employees and dealers, but scores of trained technicians and athletes. He has put unfounded doubts in the minds of our customers and potential customers alike in an attempt to promote and validate his opinions.

While there are some interesting ideas being exchanged, from our perspective the one topic that seems to be overlooked is how the appropriate bike, built to fit the rider can maximize performance. In designing a bike that will allow a rider to maximize their performance rider comfort cannot be overlooked; it is integral to achieve the desired result. Our philosophy is to fit the bike to the person not fit the person to the bike. Our approach has always been individual-centric, because each athlete is in fact unique. Triathletes are not unique as a class of athletes, they are unique as individuals. Individual strengths (or weaknesses) in each discipline, training and event preparation along with physiological factors effect what an athlete’s optimal positioning on the bike will be.

We understand that our job is to meet the expectations of each of our customer/athletes, one at a time. With each individual we ask questions, we listen, we evaluate and we watch. For most (but not always), the goal is to go faster for a greater period of time- improve speed *and *endurance. Achieving the goal requires an understanding of the individual, cycling dynamics, materials science and aerodynamics. Speed is closely tied to biomechanics of the individual, power transfer (from the athlete to the rear wheel) and aerodynamics, while endurance is more tied to comfort (while maintaining an optimized biomechanical position). Putting it all together to create the optimally balanced tool for delivering to the athlete’s demands and expectations is what we and our trained technicians do. Our goal is to exceed our clients’ expectations and by the massive amount of ‘extraordinarily happy’ mail we receive, it seems we are hitting our mark.

Regarding our understanding of fit as it relates to road, tri or time trialing the Serotta School of Cycling Ergonomics considers all disciplines of cycling. We routinely recruit athletes (cyclists, runners, swimmers, basketball & football players, speed and figure skaters and multi sport) coaches, scientists, researchers, doctors and of course bike fitters to participate in the teaching process. What makes us, our partner dealers, frame designers and builders, expert is the combined wealth of field-tested information that we collect from experts and innovators and share with our technicians and customers.

If you are interested in finding out more about our fitting methods we invite you to visit with one of our trained fitters at a Serotta dealership.

Respectfully,

Serotta Competition Bicycles

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Wow. At least it got their attention. :slight_smile:

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I assume this is in response to Slowman’s post in the previous thread?

“Unfortunately, in this case an individual has taken the opportunity to disparage not only Serotta and all of its employees and dealers, but scores of trained technicians and athletes”

I fail to see where he disparaged anyone at serotta. He just stated fact, you are good at what you do, you just don’t understand what you do not specialize in. Nothing disaparging about that.

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What thread/post is this in relation to.

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From reading the thread, it seems as if the ‘fit specialists’ were more disparaged than Serotta. Serotta was complemented on their ability to make great road bikes, they weren’t insulted because they don’t focus on tri bikes.

I like Serotta, and used to ride one. But, I haven’t considered them in my research for a tri bike purchase this winter. A few reasons: 1.) They don’t focus on the genre and don’t speak to the needs of a triathlete; 2.) For what you get, they are prohibitively expensive.3.) I’ve no need for custom this angle or that tube length, which seems to be their focus.

And lastly, how in the world is a frameset (no fork, even!) worth well over $5,000? Serotta’s Ottrot has got to be the most expensive frame this side of a Walser, but w/o the Walser’s proven track record of TT and tri victories. I know a Walser would make me faster, and an Ottrot, I think, would just make me poorer and divorced.

Oh … one last thought. Image and marketing. Serotta, in my experience, is a brand that appeals to a certain demographic that I, and most triathletes I know, don’t represent. In their marketing demographic, Serotta reigns supreme, perhaps that’s where they should focus their energies … on satisfying their core market.

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“As a rule we try to stay off of message boards because we believe the purpose is to allow an open exchange among consumers.”

This is unfortunate. I think most readers of this forum would agree that vendor and manufacturer participation on this forum has been invaluable as a means to learn about the industry and to exchange ideas. I’ll venture to say that it is generally believed that Serotta is not a company that particularly focuses on triathletes. If that is not the case, then involvement on this forum would be a big asset to us all.

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That’s amazing Pooks. I was just going to post the same things. Manufacturers would do well to spend more time of forums in my opinion.

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http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=230671;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
.

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"Serotta, in my experience, is a brand that appeals to a certain demographic that I, and most triathletes I know, don’t represent. In their marketing demographic, Serotta reigns supreme, perhaps that’s where they should focus their energies … on satisfying their core market. "

Exactly. Tri bikes are a small niche market that many don’t want to bother with.

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When I started triathlon I knew nothing about bikes at all. I still know very little. When I read a forum that has volumes of information, including input from the manufacturers themselves, naturally I want to buy from thoses manufacturers, as they understand my needs. (or at least what I think my needs are)

Tom, would you say that you have obtained customers that would have otherwise gone elsewhere by sharing your knowledge on this forum?

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Thank you assman.

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Quote from Slowman “serotta and seven make wonderful road race bikes. they don’t understand, and apparently don’t care to understand, how to properly make tri bikes. if either of these companies would decide to turn over a new leaf and start making tri bikes correctly, such an entry into the market would place them about 10 years behind litespeed and QR, leaving a lot of catching up to do.”

I meant they make wonderful road bike but do not specialize in tri bikes. To me that is not a disparaging comment, just a truthful one.

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Hey, Serotta, who ARE you? If you are actually connected with the manufacturer, I personally would appreciate it if you posted your real name. You have one post here, and for all I know you’re some troll trying to start trouble.

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If you considered yourself an expert in tri fitting (as Serotta does) you would consider that to be disparaging.

Styrrell

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You would think that Serotta being a niche manufacturer would know a thing or two about marketing to niches… unfortunately this does not appear to be the case. If you want to be successful in a niche you need to become highly involved in it, understand the niches specific needs, its culture and its language. By their nature Slowtwitch members are highly involved users and as such influence others in this market niche. We are the consumers that smart niche marketers should seek to influence. Gerard, Tom, and Gary have all done just this and have gained the collective respect (and sales) of Slowtwitch members.

It looks like someone at Serotta got word that negative things were being said about their products so they had their assistant write the ill conceived drivel that started this thread. If they actually gave a damn they would have engaged in the specific conversation about their product. It would have given them an opportunity to contribute useful knowledge to this board and become part of the niche that they claim to know so much about. My guess is that we never hear from Serotta again. To bad because they build great road bikes.

Ron

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Sounds like the writer is a marketing or pr person from the company, but it would be good if they identified themselves like Gerard et. al.

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As a long-time denizen of the Serotta forum, I can say that a link to the Serotta/Seven slowtwitch thread was posted there recently. The Serotta folks pretty much never post in their own forum; I don’t think Ben Serotta has ever done so (I could be wrong), so it’s not surprising that they won’t show up here. They did shut the whole thing down a while ago when trolls infested it, and it got quite nasty. I get involved in the same “weights are good for cycling” and “vertical compliance” arg^H^H^Hdiscussions there. Funny, ain’t it?

I am surprised that the post was done anonymously, though. I also don’t doubt its authenticity. Would slowman out them if it was not authentic? Don’t know. What’s the slowtwitch position on impersonation?

I’ve owned my Serotta Legend Ti since 1995, and I love it. But you wouldn’t believe the mystical qualities attributed to these bikes on that forum. I suspect that is due to two things: 1) they do make excellent bikes, and 2) people feel obligated to justify the expenditure of five big ones on a bike frame.

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I’m glad someone from Serotta, or at least someone who wants to defend Serotta, took the time to post. Unfortunately, the post sort of proves what Serotta’s critics are saying: Serotta cares a little, tiny bit about grabbing a piece of the tri market but they don’t care enough or see any value in investing the time to learn what they need to know about building tri bikes and demonstrating that knowledge to prospective buyers.

You have a perfect chance to prove that wrong though. Instead of a generic post cribbed from your promo materials, engage your critics. People are saying you don’t know how to design tri bikes. Show us that you do. A good place to start would be the questions posed by Dan:

“let us say that you do ascribe to my view that riding with aero bars means riding in a new position, distinct from the road position . . . In this case then you’ve got to ask yourself what changes are required in a down tube, in a chain stay, what wheels sizes become most appropriate, what steering geometry? what sort of weight displacement differences occur when a rider is riding in the aero position? how does this fact alone alter steering geometry? how ought one to reconcile short top tubes with the need for a longer front/center to counteract the weight displacement problem? what rules govern this? do any of the custom builders you mention know what the current front/center rule is for USA triathlon?”

Dan has laid out his answers to most of these questions here and elsewhere and, while a lot of us may agree with him, his is certainly not the final word on the matter. Let’s hear your thoughts.

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#1 - I love Serotta, always have and has always been a dream bike to me.

#2 - to many people talk shit on the internet - and most do not know a damn thing. I consider myself in the “know” and will voice my opinion based on facts (I am a grad of Barnetts, United, USCF tech, Wheelsmith and a few others).

#3 - please, join the forum, Gerard from Cervelo is here often, Softride, Elite, Aegis, Quintanna Roo (team ABG) and a few others. It would be an honor to have your input.

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“Unfortunately, in this case an individual has taken the opportunity to disparage not only Serotta and all of its employees and dealers, but scores of trained technicians and athletes”

i am the individual. i know that i don’t have to write this because, of course, i have published my name at the bottom of this post. this is how you know who i am.

so that i don’t make the same unfair remarks about your company in the future, it would be helpful to me if these remarks were pointed out to me. specifically:

• to serotta’s athletes that i have disparaged. i don’t know which of my comments were disparaging to these athletes. i’d be obliged to know.

• to the dealers. have i wronged them? i’m not quite sure how. i’d like to ask the dealers: you used to sell a tri specific bike, but serotta stopped making it about a decade or so ago, i believe. is there a different tri bike you all stock in your stores, one i don’t know about? was there one at serotta’s interbike booth that i didn’t see? is there one in the catalog? on the website?

• to the scores of trained technicians. are there scores trained in tri bike fit, and in how to make aero tubes and fittings? or are there other elements of training specific to tri bike manufacture they’ve received?

“triathletes are not unique as a class of athletes, they are unique as individuals.”

i think we’ve made some headway here. we’re all unique as individuals. i’ll grant you that. we have certain commonalities, of course, which is why serotta makes production frames in production sizes. but it’s the other part of that sentence. this is where you’ve drawn your line in the sand, as a company. you’ve decided to rise and fall on the premise that there is really no such thing as a bike specific to triathlon, that triathletes need only look to traditional road race bikes for their cycling needs. is this what you’re saying, by, “triathletes are not unique as a class of athletes,”?

“He has put unfounded doubts in the minds of our customers and potential customers alike in an attempt to promote and validate his opinions.”

i acknowledge that i might have put doubts in the minds of those who might choose to pay a lot of money for a custom serotta bike for use in triathlon. however, if they’re unfounded, you’re invited to explain here why that is, and i’m happy to have you do so without any further comment from me (which is why you are understandably shy of message boards).

i’m going to make a wild guess. you’re not ben serotta. i know ben, and this doesn’t sound like his writing. ben and i have (i think) mutual respect for each other. he makes fabulous frames, and always has. but then you already know that i think that. what you guys don’t do is make a tri specific frame. you just don’t. unless you do and we, the buying and reporting public, just don’t know it. or, perhaps your statement above ought to be taken at face value, that tri specific bikes are really nothing more than road specific bikes.

if this is the case, you’re invited to make that argument, and i’ll only post back to it if you specifically ask me a question to which you’d like a public answer.