I notice that many bikes are listed as TT/Tri bikes. I assume this to mean that the difference is in the fit. Further, it seems that one major distinction between the two fits is in the saddle position. If the saddle is up, then its a tri position, which minimizes the use of your hamstring. If the saddle is back, it maximizes the use of hamstrings.
Firstly, is any of this true?
Secondly, if it is true, does moving the saddle position back help you get more speed?
It only stands to reason that the TT position would be faster b/c there is no need to save yourself for a run.
The reason why I’m concerned w/ all of this is that I’m not sure (data sill coming in as i do more workouts) if I’m seeing any benefit between a $2k carbon tri bike and my 200 dollar steel framed dawes. Obviously, thats not possible, right? The only thing I can think of is that I’m not generating enough power in the aero-position. I had aero-bars on my dawes, but I was faster in the drops (over short distances, less than 20 miles). By standing and sprinting I could get up to a fast cruising speed and then it was easy to maintain it in the drops. If my speed went down, i could stand and mash a bit to get back. I’m trying not to do that on the tri-bike b/c it seems to defeat the whole purpose. But I’m starting to think I should try to use the bull horn’s to stand and crank hard, then settle down into the aero position to “hang-on”
Any comments about either the TT vs. Tri position, or power-generating techniques would be great.
x2 on the fit being an issue, and that a professional fit is probably your best route. First, most likely culprit, is that you’re too bent over on both bikes in the aero bars. ST is kind of a forum for fitting, and Dan is one of the best in the world–take some time and explore the Slowtwitch site for more information (and also to find accredited fitters). Saddle should likely be level or nearly so. You might also consider posting some pics, from the side, for feedback , but clean up around the bike or you’ll get endless razzing.
does moving the saddle towards the back of the bike help generate more power?
Not necessarily. You need to read the replies you’ve been getting. The saddle being farther back for time trialists is, in part, a function of (VERY STUPID) UCI rules that require the nose of the saddle to be 5 cms behind the center of the bottom bracket. This rule does not apply to triathletes. (It really doesn’t apply to most time trialists, either, unless they’re in UCI-sanctioned events. But most pro photos you see ARE in UCI-sanctioned events.) But also look at how time trialists ride. They ride on the very nose of the saddle … making their positions very much like what the triathlete uses. The triathlete just has the luxury of having the saddle underneath them.
I see cyclists stand and sprint all the time, but seemingly just to get up to speed. Don’t you think you can generate more power by standing?
Yes … you certainly CAN generate more power by standing. Just try sustaining that power. You can’t. Time trialing and racing triathlons are both about sustaining power and speed over great distances. Sprints in cycling usually only cover the last 250 meters of a race.
I’m assuming this is a new tri bike. How long have you been riding in this new position? Your body may need time to adjust but the power differences should be slight and the more aero position should more than make up for that loss. You should definitely be faster on your tri bike if positioned correctly. Your question seems to be about whether your road position that uses your hamstrings more wouldn’t also be faster on your tri bike set up. To put another way, it sounds like what yoyu want to know is if you will be faster setting up your tri bike with the saddle in a TT configuration. Others have pointed out that there is a TT position because the UCI requires the seat to be set back further though most TTists ride the nose of the saddle (i.e. in a more forward tri position). There are those who argue that a more slack seat angle is beneficial because it utilizes the same muscles you use on your road bike. What Dan and the FIST people here would likely say is that either you shouldn’t be on a tri bike at all or you should be riding in a steep 78+ degree seat angle. I think they estimate that 30% or more of people on tri bikes would be better off on a road bike based on their morphology, fitness level, flexibility, etc. Maybe you are one of those 30%.
I’ve only done about 5 workouts on the tri bike, so I am definitely getting used to the aero-position. I’m in pretty good shape,6’3’', 200lbs, boston marathon qualifier, and we’re talking about speeds between 20 and 23 mph for 20 miles. So if I don’t belong on a tri-bike, I’m pretty sure that way more than 30 % of the population doesn’t either. I’m getting ready to take it back in for a 2nd fit (the lbs that I bought it from offers this, suggested after about 100 miles), maybe it shifted a bit and is no longer ideal. But it probably has more to do w/ me getting used to it than anything else…
thanks for the input.
FWIW, I ride with a very aggressive position (low front). However, I’ve been riding for nearly 20yrs and I certainly couldn’t have started in the position I have now. It takes time to get comfortable with a position. You are correct that there is a tradeoff between power generation and aerodynamics. However, if you’re faster on the hoods, there is something flawed in your position or you need to get used to riding on the aerobars.
Get a good fit, take into consideration the fact that you’re new to the sport, and get lower as time goes by and you get more comfortable.
I fit riders for both TT’s and tri’s and my opinion on difference of fits is that I set up a triathlete so that it allows them to run once coming off of the bike. Now for a TT rider they should have no concern on saving the running muscles. Since I began tri’s in the early days (80’s era) and started on standard geometry I can remember the aches in my legs coming off the bike in a long course tri. The steeper seat tube angle allows for a rotation of the pelvic axis to an angle more in tune to a running position thus allowing ease of muscle transition. IMO success in tri’s is all in transitioning your muscles from one sport to the other. Now I do have a few triathletes turned cyclists that still utilize the steep angles just because they are use to it.Its their choice.But like others have posted on here fit is important and once fitted don’t expect overnite magic.It takes time for the body to adapt.
Does that LBS have a good tri fitter? If not you probably want to think about going someplace else. Where do you live?
If you go back to the same guy that set you up with the bad position in the first place he may not be able to help you. Although…You might have flexibility problems or a weird build which made the standard setup not work for you. So I guess going back in wouldn’t be bad Idea.
I saw three fitters before I finally found a position that felt good for me and where I can generate power. I’m less aero now so I have to look into that. This process has taken me a year. I worked on flexibility and upperback/neck strength. Don’t expect to jump on a TT bike and have everything gel right away.
I should clarify one thing, that seemed to be misunderstood. I am definitely NOT saying that I’m faster on the hoods. I’m saying that I feel like I generate more power, and can briefly (30seconds) accelerate better like that. Over the course of a 20 mile ride, I’m in the aero position for 99% of the time. And when I was on my road bike, I was in the drops for 99% of the time. As one person pointed out, there is no way to maintain that extra exertion over an entire course. My only reason for bringing that up, was that maybe there is a technique aspect to using brief periods of sprints to quickly accelerate to whatever speed you’re interested in trying to hold, and then settling in in the aero position.
I wouldn’t assume that your LBS has any idea what they are doinf when it comes to Tri/TT fits. Of course, they will say that they have done hundreds of these fittings but doing something wrong a hundred times just makes you really good at doing something poorly. The fit is the most important thing when it comes to tri. You are better off spending another $200-300 for a great fitter to set you up on that $2k tri bike than going to someone who couldn’t get you in a better position from the outset. Where do you live? I’m sure people here can suggest a good fitter in your area.
“It only stands to reason that the TT position would be faster b/c there is no need to save yourself for a run.”
No, in fact, it does NOT stand to THIS reason.
More to the point, your logic is all wrong on this, and you should go back and read up a bit more on the philosophy of tri-bike fitting, power, aerodynamics, and pedaling dynamics.
For instance, of course you can stand up and generate a heck of a lot of power on the pedals. But if you have a power meter, you’d quickly see that you can’t keep that 500+ watts up for very long at all…as in likely less than 1-2 minutes. And further, generating that 500+ watts standing up doesn’t significantly improve your actual ability to go fast since your power to drag ratio will increase far less than the power output might indicate. Put another way…500 watts standing up is going to be a LOT slower than 500 watts in a moderately good aerodynamic position.
Pro cyclists are faster because they are faster riders, NOT because their saddles are 5cm behind the bottom bracket. Watch most of them and you’ll see them sitting far forward on the saddle…as in “on the rivet”, and therefore artificially steepening their effective saddle position on the bike. And the fact that they don’t have to run afterward has nothing really to do with their saddle position relative to the amount of power they generate.
In some cases, riders with power meters note that they can ride with more power output in an upright position (hoods/horns) as opposed to their aerobar position(s). However, you cannot take the net result in a vacuum. Their Cda should be significantly lower (again, not always the case…look at some of the horrible positions we see on ST). Lower Cda with slightly lower power output can result in a net gain in speed.
And last, training adaptation can also reduce the gap between the two power outputs…as long as the aero position is biomechanically suitable for the particular rider (read: the hip angle is not too closed, etc.)
In short…you cannot take a particular piece of the equation in a vacuum and make generalized observations or actions on it. You must consider the whole picture.
I don’t disagree with anything you said.
BTW…nothing is wrong with my logic. I may be wrong, but logic is logic. All I said was that it would make sense to fit a tri bike in a different way to save part of your legs for the run. Time trialists don’t have a run to worry about, so they would want to go as fast as possible on the bike. That may not be true, but it is definitely logical. You don’t need to reply with such a biting tone to make your point.