Timberman Race Report: Advice Sought

Triathlon Forum
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First off slowtwitch’s own Rappstar took 5th overall. Well Done. You may have seen him at the race, he has a haircut like Lars Frederickson (of Rancid and Lars Fredrickson and the Bastards fame)

The rest of this kind of rambles, so read at your own risk.

First of all I did not win. I did beat all of the women over 40, but this was close. 47 Year old Donna Smyers (Karen’s big sister) was only 2 minutes behind me. She is an amazing athlete, still beats most of the men hallf her age and seems to do best in the toughest races. Much respect. As far as the other women who beat me, they were mostly pretty hot as far as I could tell (Kate Major is quite a looker), so whatever.

Put a little slowtwitch sign on my table at dinner Saturday. NYCTri_gal said hello. She only stayed a few minutes and then said something about about a TNO get together. That is not cool;)

Got a massage after the race. Really hurtin. The girl says to drink lots of water. I go sit in the lake for about ten minutes. Go get my cooler. The first thing I drink is three beers. The first one seemed like a bad idea, but it is the manly thing to do. The second was a little better. The third one, hooray beer. I decided to stop since I had to drive home. I was in front of the bath house as promised. A little later than advertised, due to late start and my slow finish. I at least got some guy from State College PA to put a few back with me. I also gave a beer to the cross dresser in the finish chute.

Also talking to some woman. We both agreed that our runs weren’t great today. I mention I ran 30 minutes slower than my open half marathon a few months earlier. I tell her I ran a 1:16. She say sI should go pro (seriously). I explain that I am a mediocre AGer and that pros run faster than that in a triathlon. She wasn’t just saying that to hook up with me, because we had already talked about her baby and her husband. BTW, according to her having a baby hurts more than an IM. I’m glad I’m not having a baby, because a HIM hurts a pretty good bit.

Light rain and overcast Sunday morning. Low 70s, cloudy. Race starts about 15 minutes late.

Swim is pretty normal. The swim finish was a Red Bull Arch which was kind of hard to see with all the other crap. They should have used that red inflatable Clif Bar arch from teh run finish chute. Distance for the swim was pretty accurate as far I can tell. I swam 32:17. Not bad for 86K of swimming all year.

Bike is hillier than I remember. You should have a 25 for this course (I did). I love the hills but rode relaxed and still passed lots of people here. In the past I have tried to go hard on hills as they are my strength, but I hear Dev in my head (dog the hills, cruise the flats, hammer the downhill, save your legs for the run). I probably only took about 40 oz. of fluid total. It was not hot on the bike and I felt like I was drinking enough. Had a slight twinge of a cramp on a downhill at mile 50, while softpedaling, worried me for a minute. Went away, no worries, finish strong, it is warming up a bit. I rode a 2:33:30, which is a PR by about 2 minutes for a half iron bike. I also felt pretty restrained and ready to run.

Started the run. Stopped to pee. Okay, maybe I did drink enough. Running okay, about 6:45 thorugh first 6 miles in about 41 flat. Twinge of a cramp in the fifth mile. Mile seven and I am not feeling good. Maybe I need salt? Take some heed pretzels, cola. Just a little. Really just feel lousy the llast seven miles. End up doing a 1:46. I came in thinking a 1:24 to 1:26 is a very reasonable goal. I ran 1:33 here last year and I am running much better this year.

Ended up in 4:56. Huge disappointment. Ten minutes slower than last year. In the big scheme of life, not really a big deal, but I would like to take something away from all this.

I came into the race with about 1300 run miles and 1900 bike miles. 300+ and 400- compared to last year. I did Boston in April, so I got a late start on the bike. I have done a number of big (stupid?) rides. 4 hours with 2 x Petersburg Pass (4 miles at 6% each time 1300 ft. vertical), plus Mt. Greylock 3000 ft in 8 miles, plus misc 1000 ft on the ride followed the next weekend by Dev Paul IM 2 loop plus Whiteface (118 miles). Have done a number of 50 milers with 2 x 20 minute intervals with 4 minute rest in between. I have ridden well, including today, based on my bike PR without going nuts.

Did a “long” olympic two weeks ago, with a hilly (1200 ft of climbing) 30.4 mile bike which I did in 1:20 flat (22.8 mph) and then did a 43:30 for a hot and hilly 7.2 mile run to finish.

Three weeks ago I ran a 5K 17:03 and 10K 35:33 on consecutive days. I have consistently run low 17’s off the bike in shorter races this year, most recent was 17:59 for a hilly 3.25 mile off a 11.5 mile bike. I ran a 27:52 5 mile at Fairlee tri earlier in July (this run is a little short, but 1 minute faster than I did a year earlier and one of the fastest run splits in a tough field). I did a 1:12:52 at Mt Washinton in mid June (7.6 miles, 4700 ft; vertical); about as fast as I ran the last 7.6 at Timberman. I did a 1:16:15 1/2 Marathon in March, a 2:59 at Boston in April. Basically I consider myself a runner. To do so poorly on the run really pains me.

Am I nuts to think I could run a 1:26 in a HIM? Could I be 20 minutes slow due to bad nutrition/hydration? Am I just not a good long course runner? Any thoughts?

Anyway, I have a flight a 6:30 AM to Jackson Hole. I am going to climb rocks and forget about all this. If I am lucky I will be on top of Grand Teton on Saturday. Then I am coming back and doing a 4 day bike race (Green Mountain Stage Race) Labor day weekend. Maybe I will think about doing a tri again after that (Actually I am already signed up for two more)

tri_yoda

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tri_yoda

Nice report. If I recall you are a Sox fan, so not is all lost - we are up by 4 again. back to the race - if you run 1:16 on an accurately measured course, you can run 1:20-1:22 in my opinion. Not sure how many 1/2 IMs you have done, but it takes a few to understand how to ‘race’ the run - sounds like you were doing well until the cramping. Do you think you pushed the bike a bit? That is ‘usually’ the cause…

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Thank you!!

General consensus is that the swim was a touch long maybe 1.5 minutes. Both Marcel & Pete Jacobs can swim 21:XX in wetsuits; Pete did so last year. So you can chop off a bit of time there relative to last year.

I’m also gonna say, respectfully, that Dev’s bike course approach is the exact opposite of what you want to do. It is very hard to hammer the downhills and make up time. Hammer the uphills, and you can make up a lot of time. At the extreme end, look at it this way – you will go nowhere if you output 0 watts on the uphill and 250 watts (for example) of the downhill. If you output 250 watts on the uphill, and 0 on the downhill, you will be much better off. Hammering the downhill is silly, because you are trying to power at higher speed, where power requirements are largely dominated by velocity-cubed. On the uphill, power is largely determined by velocity only (rolling resistance & rate of ascent). So you will ALWAYS get more out of powering the uphill than the downhill. You would be much better served to get in a good aero tuck on the downhill and fly that to really try to power them.

A PR in wet weather is impressive. Clearly some restraint on the uphills paid off. But I think you can fine tune that balance and go faster…

As far as the run, what did you eat/drink on the bike? 40oz. of fluid may have been enough given the conditions (I had 48oz), but it may not have been enough calories. If you were drinking less because it was cool, then you may have deprived yourself of the calories that normally accompany hydration. Your good time through the first 6 miles will attest that you are capable. The increasing heat as the day went on probably also played a large role in your decline on the second 1/2 of the run. But sounds a little bit like a bonk. You need to put those calories in on the bike in order to use them on the run.

1:24-1:26 is DEFINITELY doable if you can a 1:16 1/2-mary (assuming the course is accurate). I think it was probably a lack of calories (and perhaps fluids since it did get quite hot) on the bike that became an issue later in the day. I’d look to at nutrition (ESPECIALLY pre-race) and also heat-management issues…

That “long” olympic distance also may not have been the best thing for training.

Enjoy your time away. Don’t let it worry you… Me, I’m resting my battered feet. I have to take pics of my “Curt Shilling” racing flat (torn blister on the heel during run)…

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Good stuff out there yesterday Jordan :slight_smile: You should do IM Wisconsin now, maybe you would get 5th :-p
.

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Sounds like a great race, thanks for the report!

I don’t want to sound like I’m piling it on, but you had only 40oz of liquid for the entire 56 mile bike? 5 cups? Was that water or sports drink? What did you eat on the bike? More info please! :slight_smile:

-Colin

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rappstar,

I am in the same boat as you. I made a last minute decision to wear a different shoe (and no socks). I just finished having my wife poke and prod all the blisters and bloody parts. Here is the best part, get off the bike at 3 flat (31m swim, 2:29 bike). Feeling great. All i need is 1:30 and I am golden. Slip into the racing shoes and within 3/4 mile I am in trouble. Blood in the corners near my small toe. Try adjusting the laces, no luck. Get to 5 miles and take them off! Actually run 1.5 miles barefoot (yes I am desperate). I then realize my car is unlocked and my other shoes are in the back. I jump into the parking lot and swap shoes! So my goal of cruising a 1:30 to 1:35 turns into 1:50 of shuffling, running bare foot, and cussing my rookie mistake!

Btw, the reason I changed shoes is this: thursday I was painting a shelf at home and dropped it on my foot. My normal race shoes are a bit tight so they hurt the top of my foot. Today I am hobbled, body is fine. Feet…not so much.

Here is the wounds list:

both arches, complete blister on each. 5 of 10 toes, blood blisters on these, both small toes turned to hamburger. The tops of the toes on my right foot also worn raw!

So from now on…socks on anything longer than a Oly.

Kurt

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Triyoda and Rappster, see my points in cdw’s “racing with power thread”. When I say dog the uphills, what I mean is hold back at a steady effort. Don’t spike it to 450 W to thump over the top of a hill. Just hold back at 250 (for arguement’s sake) and maintain the constant output over the top and on false flat downhills. Of course, if you have a engine like Rappster, hammering on hills and over the top gains you big time. Most of us are not in that camp (although we like to think we are) and after 1 hour of riding that way, we are toast.

Triyoda, you can easily run 1:22 to 1:25 range in a half Ironman. You just need more biking overall over a number of years. Its not just the big long rides that count, but day in and day out volume. You also need to do a weekly 3 hour ride with large parts of that ride at half Ironman race and higher. This way, you get to T2 and you can actually use those running legs.

Finally, on the nutrition front, just make sure that you drink 2 large gatorade bottles with a teaspoon each of salt. This way, you don’t have to even think about salt tablets and all the messing around. It happens automajically. Starting the run, one more bottle of gatorade with a teaspoon of salt. I suspect the combination of larger bike volume and maintaining your sodium balance (hey its 4:30 to 5 hour day, you need salt even if you don’t think so), will ensure that you run that 1:22 half.

May the force be with you :slight_smile:

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I probably only took about 40 oz. of fluid total.

On my PR half Ironman last fall I doubt I drank more than 40oz. on the bike. It rained a little, was right on the border of being chilly and the wind blew pretty hard. However, of the 40 oz., 28 of them came in my “feed” bottle that I put in the necessary scoops of Perpetuem and Endurolites. I don’t mean to sound like a commercial for Hammer products, but I have had a lot of good races using that combination. I set a timer on the bike so I make sure that I take all the solution over the course of the whole bike without “cramming” at the end because I forgot. I tried to take a little hammer gel on the run but my stomach didn’t like it and I just poured water on my head for the last 6 miles. It was the first time in six tries at Half-IM that my first half and second half runs were within two minutes of each other.

I also kept an eyeball on the heart rate and powermeter so that I wasn’t doing any crazy efforts on the big hills. I didn’t have a blazing bike split but I did get off and run 1:24:21 on a course that had about a mile of beach running, a few hills and some dirt trails. It was a breakthrough for me after a number of 1:30-35 half IM splits.

Some days you have it and some days you don’t. Two weeks after the above race I was more rested and tapered, but just went flat at 40 miles on the bike. Same eating plan but drank a lot more water. No explanation. I dnf’ed at Mile 3 of the run and ended up in the ambulance. I passed out; blood pressure 80/50. For whatever reason my energy stores were not good that day. I felt great the following Monday and had a 12-hour run/4-hour ride week in preparation for another bad race at Marine Corps Marathon. :slight_smile:

Chad

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Enjoy the Grand, I did that climb about 5 years ago and it was one of the coolest things I ever did, although as a non-climber it was quite terrifying at the time. We had an exum guide who was great. Made it sort of like doing an IM on a tandem with Simon Lessing as your partner…Hope you have good weather.

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Anyone knows what happened to Jamie Cleveland on the bike…

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Alex, Jamie must have flatted or had a mechanical based on the splits.

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I did the race a few years ago and no way Jamie could have bike the course in 2h40 without have any sort of problem!!! That’s why I’m asking if anyone saw something out there…

Alex

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He was alternating standing / riding on the hoods on the long flat section and appeared to be struggling. Perhaps Dev is right and he flatted and with the wet weather he had a hard time regaining rhythm. But he didn’t look his best when I saw him on the bike… Certainly rebounded nicely and looked good on the run!

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Nice meeting you Saturday night. Never did find the “other forum” people. :-Þ Aquabike was fun. All I can say is I’m glad I didn’t have to run after I got off my bike. The sun had come out, and it was getting rather warm out there. I hung out and watched from the sponge area. The 6:00+ people did not look like they were having fun. That would have been me. I did 3:45 something, and I know I would have been running for at least two hours, and probably more like 2:15 - 2:30.

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I figured I would add my Timberman comments here rather than start a new thread :slight_smile:

First, congratulations to Keith Jordan and the race staff for another extremely well-run event. With the size of the field this year (about 1200 finishers, compared to about 700 in '02, my first year), I was a bit concerned before the race about crowding on the course. However, the organizers juggled waves and spacing between wave starts very skillfully. I was in the second-to-last wave (M35-39) and did not notice any crowding to speak of on the course.

Second, congratulations to tri_yoda (I wish I had advice for you, but a bad day for you is still better than my best :-), Rappstar, and the other STers who participated. I’m sorry that I didn’t get a chance to meet anyone. I did see a fellow in a TSR jersey and a race number somewhere in the 1390s, but my bashfulness and pre-race nerves prevented me from doing more than smiling and nodding.

As far as my race experience, I was happy overall with it. I am still a BOP swimmer, but have been working pretty diligently at it for the past year, and was rewarded with a ~44:00 swim split - not exactly fishlike, but a little better than my 50:00+ times in previous years. I did get calf cramps a couple of times, which was new to me. I did a quick forum search and found a bunch of posts on this subject, so I’ve got some ideas there.

My transitions this year were really slow - T1 mostly due to not enough practice getting out of my wetsuit (plus the usual post-swim spaciness), T2 due to a potty break. Definitely room for improvement.

I felt good on the bike, although I’d forgotten how hilly the course is (especially the first 15 miles or so). I have a 53/39 in front and a 12/25 in back and am seriously thinking about going to a compact crank. I used the 39x25 many times - I prefer to stay seated, aero if possible, and spin up hills, but had to get out of the saddle a few times. On the other hand, I did get a chance to use the bigger gears on the out-and-back. Bike split was ~2:44:00.

The sun came out just in time for me to start the run :slight_smile: I felt good early and did the first 3 miles at a sub-8:00 pace, which is quick for me. Side stitches started to appear and forced me to relax my breathing and eventually slow to more like a 8:30 pace. I walked the aid stations (of which there were many), but was able to keep running otherwise. Run split was just under 1:50:00, which brought me in just under 5:30:00 overall. That is easily my best time at Timberman (about 18:00 better than last year), which makes me feel better about the training plan I’ve been following this year (thanks again to mpl201 for posting it) and gives me a little bit more confidence heading into IM Wis.

Thanks again to the race staff for a great event - see you next year.

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Did anyone else notice the high number of mech.'s this year? I’ve never seen so many athletes on the side of the road with flats and other issues.

I did both of Keith’s HIMs this year, and they were top-notch events. Congrats to all here on the forum that raced.

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Agreed - it seemed like there was someone pulled over every couple of miles. Not sure what to attribute that to - the roads seemed in good shape.

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Rain increases the likelihood of flats substantially… That’d be my guess.

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I would agree with the rain…The course was swept professionally BOTH Friday and Saturday, in case they missed anything on Friday…

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That would have been me (1392). You should have said hi, i met a bunch of twitchers thanks to that top and my tribe top I was wearing at all other times. You were well ahead of me.

J.