"And your second to last sentence makes no sense. "
Allow me to clarify. Had Tim been racing 10-15 yrs ago he would not have won with the times that he has set in the past two years (13th and 15th fastest IM Kona) because he would have been facing faster competition from Allen/Scott than he is now from the current field. In otherwards the field was more competitive back then because it was faster.
What part of this don’t you understand?
Ahh, that makes much more sense. Glad to see that you gathered your thoughts coherently this time before posting. And I’m also glad that you recognize I didn’t make the statements you previously said I did.
I don’t know if I agree with your comment. If drafting was a factor back when Allen/Scott were racing, I’m sure Tim’s times would be faster, too, as he would have had the benefit of that very same draft.
If Deboom isn’t great, there obviously isn’t a pro out there that is worthy of it. No one has come close to beating him the last 2 years. I guess that the men’s pro field is just plain weak in Kona and Deboom is the best of the worst Professional Ironman Triathletes in the world.
Cerveloguy, do you think if the some driver is leading the Indy 500 by 10 seconds and no one is gaining on him, that he is going to risk using more fuel or gettin caught in a wreck over knowing he can do what needs to be done and collect the title and fat paycheck.
Get real, he is the best out there, and the one everyone is striving to beat this coming saturday.
What’s most interesting to me in this post is what people’s version of GREAT is…Can we all agree that Ali was a great fighter? Now ask yourself, what made him great?
Since we’re so obsessed with ‘times’…looking at the previous 15 IMs, TDB’s winning time in 2002 would have also won in 1987, 1988, 1997, and 2001 (which he won). Combine that with his win last year and he would have won roughly 31% of the last 16 Hawaii IMs (5 of 16). (and would have been within 1:30 of another) His 200O time (2nd place) would have won him 2 more (1990 and 1998). Only 2 others have put up back to back IM Hawaii wins. Great? If not its pretty damn impressive.
IMO, basing ‘greatness’ on race time is silly considering the varying conditions at Kona each year. The wind alone could impact total times by several minutes. Not to mention the heat, humidity, sea swells, etc.
If you offered Tim the choice of a sub 8 IM and second place or an 8:30 IM to win which do you think he’d choose? I’m guessing he could care less what his time is as long as he’s the first to cross the line. That we should look at that and then say he’s less of a winner than others is just silly. As you state ‘a race is a race is a race’ so is ‘a win is a win is a win’. That he managed to do it twice in a row is impressive enough for me.
OK here is my 4 cents. Probably said already in some sort of way. Greatness is a mystique, a mystery, right timing ,right place…right media converage. It is attitude and all other stuff rolled up in one. Tim is a great at competing to win. Those who have crawled across the line are known for the dramatic however that could have been the result of poor nutritional or pacing execution! One thing is for sure! Over the last couple of years the race has belonged to TDB. I believe Macca talks a lot of SH_ T because he knows he has nothing to loose and everything to gain in the way of sponsorship, coverage and bragging rights if he hits the mark one of these times. I bet you will not see him “blow people away” or bring the race to a “new level”. No disrespect but I think Tim is a victim of his own humbleness. What else would you expect from US midwesterners. Either way. If Tim is happy with his role in the history books then great. If he wants to be knows as a “Rad Dude” then he will have to get a mohawk and an some tatoos cuz his personality is just not “Greatness”! But he is a 2 time IM champ! Not many in Kona can say that!
The argument that Tim is great is popcorn. He is a good athlete but not great. None of his times are competitive to the great Athletes of LVL, Allen, or Scott. Those three were great because they pushed the envelope of the sport, not simply won. LVL just happens to be a tender Ferrari, but he pushed the envelope. Greatness and winner do not directly correlate. Tim Deboom is a winner, but not Great. It brings us back to how you would rather be remembered. As one such as Jurgen Zack who pushes the bike hard and sometimes blows up in a blaze, or the Tim Deboom method of methodically pressing ahead while your opponents falter. Until we see someone with the cajones and the will to press in all 3 disciplines, then there will not be any records, so there can be no mention of greatness, only good.
“The race is slower because it is more competitive”
??? That’s a ridiculous statement IMO. A new world marathon time was just set by one of the Kenyans. Was that because the field was uncompetitive. Hey Cerveloguy, I’ll stick by my statement … those Kenyans set a world best in Berlin … Not at the Olympics or World Championships where the marathon is usually won in a “pedestrian” 2:09-2:11 range by comparison. Again, the fields are very deep at the big ones and they are using strategy to go for the win and not a time. In Berlin, it is my understanding that the guy who placed 2nd was actually a pacemaker for the winner (what a pacemaker though!). If you focus on how fast the winners were going at Hawaii 10 years ago, why didn’t any of them ever break 8 hours somewhere else? I would like to see TDB go for a fast time in Roth or Austria where they seem to be more attainable and more people are willing to risk the big blow-up.
I just love how people want to take a subjective thing like “greatness” and turn it into an objective thing. As has been said before, one man’s greatness is anothers ho-hum. IMHO, Tim is a great long course triathlete and he’s the smartest (at least, in terms of race strategy) son-of-a-gun in the field. They guy knows how to win.
Sorry guys but winning the world championship twice in a row, irrespective of time guarantees one’s greatness…on any given day at any give time I would swop my sorry ass times for just one TDB victory!!
Seems to me, the more I look at it, that Tim Deboom has the same attitude and approach as Lance Armstrong. Very controlled and calculating. Lance never does more than he needs to. (Some times of course he miscalculates !)
To be considered great you have to either win many close battles, preferably coming from behind, or just never lose.
Just where in my post do I judge orcaman? I did make a (obviously easy) comparison between he and Tim. But that’s relative to the topic being “greatness” in triathlon.
But maybe my insinuation that he was foolishly judging was a judgement… damn… I’m such a looser.
“DeBoom concurred, saying they’re going hard as they can, pointing to the deficits he considers may happen. “It’s not an easy to give up time to them on the bike,” he said of many of the male bike specialists. "If I can, I’m gonna ride with them all day. The goal is to get off the bike in the lead and finish the run. I don’t put myself on these guys’ level as a cyclist. We’ll see what happens on Saturday.” "
"those who judge this way are (pardon me) just foolish. "
Isn’t this a judgment against people who judge? Didn’t Orcaman “judge this way”? You were talking about Orcaman’s passing judgment, weren’t you? I just thought it was funny.
“Until we see someone with the cajones and the will to press in all 3 disciplines”
I have to agree with you that anybody (man or woman) who will do the race with a big pair of cajones (drawers) in his shorts will have to be called Great.
You must have meant ‘cojones’.
(Don’t take my post personally; I have taken up the mission to educate the readers of this forum on the difference between cojones and cajones)
This just in, TDB spotted vomiting at the side of the Queen K, right before he got into the medical van. Well… maybe next year when the pace is slower.
you must a real badass to put down tim like that…how did you do in hawaii??? oh! or are you on the computer instead? quick to judge, but you don’t win it twice if you suck.
I agree with Francois on this one … Great ones keep on fighting. Kraft could have conceded the win and consolidated a hold on 2nd place but decided that wasn’t good enough for her and keep surging. Love to see that kind of tough racing!
As for TDB. He had a bad day but he’s won the race twice which is a hell of a lot better than any of us posting on this forum have managed. I’m just hoping that I have a good day in Florida in 3 weeks so I can get my ass kicked by him in Kona next year
