I wonder if Scott Tinley would have raced as hard as he did all the time if he knew then about recovery, longevity in the sport, peak fitness, as we know today. He won Hawaii twice. But it seems that he was overtrained at the rest of his world championships in HI. Deboom comes to Hawaii in shape every year and ready to race. I bet he’ll be around for a few more years, too. I’d say he is great. He won the big one twice. LVL with the fastest Kona time ever can’t even say that.
I tend to agree with fireluv’s opinion. Tim is a winner, yes. But he’s not great. Luc Van Lierde is great! Dave Scott and Mark Allen are great, as well as others. But Tim is not great. And Lance was great even BEFORE he won his first TDF. Now he’s super-great! The way he overcame everything this year to win the TDF instantly qualifies him as one of the greatest of the great - if you didn’t think he was great already. Nuff said.
“He won the big one twice. LVL with the fastest Kona time ever can’t even say that.”
Van Lierde won Hawaii in 1996 and 1999.
from fireluv
" I happen to think that winning does not make you great, it is how you win. Tim wins by default. Somebody blows up and he passes them. He does not challenge them."
The reason the people were blowing up all around him was because he WAS challenging them. Just happened to be on the run when it mattered instead of on the bike. I’d say the 5:40 miles were pretty challenging.
From xtri.com’s race report:
McCormack entered the six mile out and back along Alii Drive with an adrenaline fuelled spring in his step. All his triathlon life he had dreamed of winning the Ironman and now, here he was, striding along Alii Drive with clear road ahead of him. How cruelly the Kona gods dealt with him. By the time he turned up Palani hill to the Queen K, Hellriegel and Chabaud had passed him and he was a shuffling, pain filled wreck. At the first aid station on the Queen K, he slumped down on a volunteer’s chair. “I’ve had a great bike, but my legs won’t run” he was saying, almost to himself. “I just can’t run.” He poured water on his head and put ice in his cap in an attempt to stave off the sweltering heat, but it was too late. This guy was toast.
Macca wasn’t the only one suffering. Stadler cracked and took four and a half hours to complete the marathon whilst Hellriegel, even though he was by now leading, didn’t look too comfortable either. Running in second place, Chabaud had gastric problems to deal with and a couple of ‘tactical pukes’ from the Frenchman decorated the side of Alii Drive. Quite suddenly, the eight minute gap to the chasers didn’t look so big after all.
Of that group, it was the three most dangerous runners who now appeared to have the upper hand. Last year’s 1-2, DeBoom and Brown, were running side by side with a rejuvenated Peter Reid, rediscovering his Ironman legs after a wretched, DNF filled 12 months. The trio played ‘Pacman’ to those ahead right out to the far turn on Alii Drive before the 5:40 per mile pace claimed its first victim, Brown. “I could only hang with that pace until the 8km mark when I had to let them go,” he later said. “It was either do that or blow up soon after.”
“Tim is a winner, yes. But he’s not great”
Fairly or unfairly, this may well be his legacy unless the pace quickens. If he wins IM Kona ten more times but in the same relatively “slow” umpteenth fastest times many will regard him as a consistant winner of his era but not being a great. He will be remembered as the guy who could win consistantly in times that were about 20-25 minutes slower than those of the greats that preceded him. A new legend will not be born until somebody finally beats the current record.
Someone (or several someones) always seem to opine that TDB wins his races in Kona by drafting. I would think that the only people with personal knowledge of this would be those who get to see large portions of TDB’s bike-leg, i.e. someone in a follow car or an athlete in “the pack.” The only time I have seen TDB race – and even then only in snippets – was in the first Ralph’s. He certainly seemed to draft there, as did everyone except one pro. Because reliable sources on this subject are scarce, I have tried (often unsuccessfully) to restrain myself from adopting any sort of general (and derogatory) opinion of TDB’s race tactics. However, you say you know TDB personally, so I was wondering if you could share his take on tis criticism? Does he ignore it, dispute it, or simply say that he races the way he is allowed to race, or something else (e.g., “Yeah, I draft; and I win. Which part don’t you understand?”). Just curious.
Like a previous poster mentioned, I don’t like the “110%” hyperbole, either. Being a literalist at heart (although talking about the “heart” in the same vein (pun intended) as the brain is in itself a literalist no-no). Next thing you know, you have people saying that someone gives 120% and even 150%. This just isn’t possible. It may be possible for someone to give 10% more than his previous best effort…but that just means his previous best effort was only 90% of his capability. Or, maybe it was his previous 100% capability and now he just has more ability through training or whatever.
Anyway, Mr. DeBoom’s accomplishments have put him in the position of being a point of arguement regarding his status as Great or not-so-great. Being a literalist, I find it at least slightly harder to classify athletes as great just because of some athletic feats. However, Mr. Armstrong is someone I do consider to be great, but not just because he’s won the TDF 5 times. I also consider a former co-worker to be great, although he’s never done much more athletically than bowl a 250 game one time, and isn’t famous, and lives in the same dumpy little house he’s lived in for 40 plus years, and has Parkinson’s so bad that he’s losing weight quickly due to the constant tremors…but his life was one of greatness in all areas. He gave close to 100% of his energy and attention to every thing he did, from raising his family to picking up trash around a can when someone else was too careless to hit the hole…and never wanted to be noticed for all the great things he did in his work and life…he just wanted people to put in more caring and effort into their daily activities. He is a Great person without a doubt.
Garth wrote: “However, you say you know TDB personally, so I was wondering if you could share his take on tis criticism? Does he ignore it, dispute it, or simply say that he races the way he is allowed to race, or something else (e.g., “Yeah, I draft; and I win. Which part don’t you understand?”). Just curious.”
Tim does not condone drafting and never would. Tim has never explained to me a drafting penalty he has received, but I have also never asked. We usually chat about his training and preparation or just other “friend” talk when we chat. He is usually asking me about how my training and season is going.
I personally believe, knowing his character, that he would never intentionally draft to cheat anyone and he has always spoken out against it … which obviously puts him as a target when he get’s called for one. The pro’s race to the very finest line in the rule book and push the draft limits to their fullest, there is no doubting that. Occassionally, they fall over that line and get hit, but too my knowledge Tim has never been tossed from a race (IM or other) for drafting.
Tim has a mindset much like Mark Allen. He’s very focused and he trains year round for Kona (his Tour de France, ala Lance). He is not a flashy guy like Macca. He pushes the pace of people much harder than it appears and I think that is what makes the race better overall. Guys fear DeBoom and thus they push the field harder. Just the last two years they all pushed too hard and couldn’t catch Tim or hold him off on the run.
I like Macca and think one day he’ll win, but Macca has to learn it’s a lot more than talking big and riding hard. It’s about putting it all together on the same day in all three sports and being mentally strong.
I think Macca and Tim and Peter and Cam Brown … they all compliment each other at this race and some guys (Macca) are just more vocal. I think this year is gonna be a hell of a race and I tip my hat to whoever wins and in whatever time it takes - sub 8 hrs or sub 9 hours - doesn’t matter to me.
Dennis
Tim Deboom is great because he won Hawaii back to back. Get real. How many have done that?
To go your absolute hardest in every ironman you do will only shorten your career. Going just hard enough to win, even if it is only by 15 minutes, is the smart way to go.
As a math teacher I applaud the “say no to 110%” view since it is not possible for you to give more than 100% of what you have …
As for the TDB debate … the man has won one of the world’s toughest racest 2 straight years so that would certainly indicate that he is on the verge of greatness to me. The race is definitely more competitive now (even though the times may not imply it) since there are a whole group of men that are capable of winning the thing on the day which makes the go-for-broke, reckless approach not as common as when there are only 2 or 3 real contenders for the crown. That said, I sure hope there are some kamikaze types (ie. Larsen and Macca and LVL and Hellreigel etc.) that smoke the bike to make it really interesting this year. IF TDB comes from 13 minutes back and runs them down like Allen did then no one will be putting up any posts criticizing his “greatness” anytime soon.
"The race is definitely more competitive now "
The race is also slower now. Period. We’re dissing the men, but we’re ignoring the same also applies to the women. Even Natasha’s last year’s time was still 12 minutes slower than Paula’s record. Perhaps the problem is that we’re so used to seeing records continously falling in other sports that it seems rather uneventful when it doesn’t happen in tri.
The race is slower because it is more competitive. Just look at races like the Olympic 1500m that are ultra competitive. There are so many other ironman races around where athletes can go for the fast time that to do so at Hawaii would be a big mistake. The Golden League track series brings in rabbits for their 1500s but in the championships nobody wants to be the rabbit. Every now and then though, there is a magical race where someone says #@$% it and goes like hell early on (1984 when Steve Scott tried to run the crap out of Seb Coe and Steve Cram comes to mind) … hopefully we’ll see that in the lava fields this year.
“The race is slower because it is more competitive”
??? That’s a ridiculous statement IMO. A new world marathon time was just set by one of the Kenyans. Was that because the field was uncompetitive.
“The race is slower because it is more competitive”
??? That’s a ridiculous statement IMO. A new world marathon time was just set by one of the Kenyans. Was that because the field was uncompetitive.
You’re comparing apples to oranges. Racing a marathon is much different than racing an IM. And, yes, the field at that marathon isn’t as competitive as IM Hawaii. Think of how many elites will be racing for the top spot in HI vs. how many raced that marathon.
As was discussed the other day, there are 2 reasons times are slower now:
(1) There’s a big payday for winning so everyone is going to race conservatively to avoid the risk of blowing up. When someone steps up to the plate and offers a $1 million bonus for a IMH record or a IMH sub-8, we will probably see the records fall.
(2) Drafting. It is better enforced now than it ever has been. PNF’s record my never fall. If TDB could sit on wheels like PNF and Fernanda used to do, he could probably pull out a 2:35 marathon.
“You’re comparing apples to oranges”
A race is a race is a race. So as IM Kona continues to get more competitive we should think it get slower? And Olympic track records fall only when the fields are uncompetitive? Your arguement defies logic.
I would argue that the field is actually uncompetitive since if DeBoom only ever does enough to win, he is still able to win in those times. Had he been racing 10-15 yrs ago this would not have been the case.
“You’re comparing apples to oranges”
A race is a race is a race. So as IM Kona continues to get more competitive we should think it get slower? And Olympic track records fall only when the fields are uncompetitive? Your arguement defies logic.
I would argue that the field is actually uncompetitive since if DeBoom only ever does enough to win, he is still able to win in those times. Had he been racing 10-15 yrs ago this would not have been the case.
Neither of those were MY arguments. Your statements defy logic when you say I said something I didn’t.
And your second to last sentence makes no sense.
"And your second to last sentence makes no sense. "
Allow me to clarify. Had Tim been racing 10-15 yrs ago he would not have won with the times that he has set in the past two years (13th and 15th fastest IM Kona) because he would have been facing faster competition from Allen/Scott than he is now from the current field. In otherwards the field was more competitive back then because it was faster.
What part of this don’t you understand?
I’ve always liked DeBoom. I like a guy who comes out, prepares, covers all the bases on race day, and then takes care of business. To me, he seems like the consummate professional – his preparation is (or has been the last two years) flawless and he has won without belittling his competitors or the race in general. I like that. Classy.
What I gather from all these posts is we want to see someone hammer the bike, hammer the run and smoke course record like the old days. The apparently blatant drafting from the days of Allen and Scott is apparently not a factor when hoping for the return to the glory days. A few months back, someone else also mentioned, rather specifically, that a certain winner from the mid/late '90’s quite possibly used performance enhancing drugs to win the race.
So all these factors have to be considered when talking of a superfast time. If the drafting rules are relaxed a bit, then we could easily see the really fast times again. But do we want that to happen? I would venture not. (Rules have been changed in other sports in favor of better offense – the baseball’s DH and the juiced baseball in recent years come to mind quickly; I think all of us would agree that a faster bike time would be considered triathlon offense.)
What we should do is appreciate what is happening. DeBoom is challenging his competitors, and he is lowering the boom on them. But it’s not happening on the bike. It’s on the run, after riding 112 miles under the watchful eye of the draft marshals. If he does draft, it’s not as bad as it used to be (was it Allen who joked about drafting off a truck during his heyday in Hawaii?). He’s riding an efficient race, but then running a great one. Instead of salivating over the uber-bikers, maybe we should be paying closer attention to the run. Fast bike times are sexier, but what is really amazing is a sub-2:50 marathon time after the bike. I think what will happen in the future is that the run times will drop more than the bike times.
This remains a runner’s game, and DeBoom proves that time and again.
RP
"Fast bike times are sexier…This remains a runner’s game, and DeBoom proves that time and again. "
Honest to God, I’m not trying to trash the guy, but it is fair to point out that even his run has been slower than Allen’s and LVL’s.