http://www.totalimmersion.net/blog/Perpetual-Motion-Freestyle---MIT-Presentation-.html
Video 3, a little after 7:30 minutes. Says Ian Thorpe and Grant Hackett have better range of motion and can get away with EVF. Then says in his 30+ years teaching he has never seen someone who can.
Do you think this is true or just a consequence of coaching beginners?
http://www.totalimmersion.net/blog/Perpetual-Motion-Freestyle---MIT-Presentation-.html
Video 3, a little after 7:30 minutes. Says Ian Thorpe and Grant Hackett have better range of motion and can get away with EVF. Then says in his 30+ years teaching he has never seen someone who can.
Do you think this is true or just a consequence of coaching beginners?
Just as with bike fit, I don’t like any system that assumes you can’t do something. What if you can get to 99% of their range of motion? 98%? 97% … etc. Where do you draw the line? TI is like many systems. It says, basically, “you can’t swim like the best swimmers in the world, so let me show you my special method for people who suck… I mean are ‘limited.’”
I can’t swing a golf club as fast as Tiger Woods, but does that mean I should fundamentally swing it differently? TI’s argument is absurd to make. It is a truer statement to say that “everyone is exactly the same” than to say “everyone is completely different.” That is, you have a lot more in common with Thorpe & Hackett than do have dissimilarities. This is, of course, assuming you have two arms, two legs, etc. If you are a physically challenged athlete, then yes, you may need a different swim stroke (just as, for example, Sarah Reinertsen has to run differently than a typical runner due to having an above the knee prosthesis on one leg). But unless there is some obvious - and major - difference like that, I don’t see that TI has any place telling you “you can’t.” Especially when it’s not clear what exactly their definition of that range is.
TI is the swimming version of snake-oil.
I don’t know if it’s a consequence of teaching beginners or not, but that wouldn’t invalidate his experience.
The point being that non-elite swimmers can’t (usually) replicate the swim technique of the elite swimmers and quite possibly are wasting their time trying to.
I can speak for myself: when my arm is completely extended and I hinge at the elbow either my elbow has to move outward to complete the hinge or my hand has to move inside just past my body’s center line to complete the hinge. I do not possess the rotator cuff flexibility it takes to perform the catch the same way I’ve seen Hackett do it.
how then, does one develop the proper shoulder flexibility. I’d be willing to bet that their stroke developed over years and years. is it wrong to think that attempting to imitate some of the best swimmers in the world could possibly lead to improvement down the line?
I don’t think it’s true at all. I’m not a fantastic swimmer by any stretch but one thing I CAN do properly is the vertical forearm.
how then, does one develop the proper shoulder flexibility.
Swim lots. Preferably all four strokes. (Butterfly requires good shoulder mobility) Over time, you will develop better flexibility.
for some reason range of motion keeps popping up as the limiter, keeping people from achieving what pros achieve. i see it mentioned in bike fit as well. but range of motion is almost never the thing that makes an athlete superior. it’s almost always the engine because, at the pointy end of a sport, everybody’s got really good technique.
the thing about the vertical forearm, it’s not range of motion limiting in my opinion (because i can do it). the problems are two: thrust + hydrodynamics + timing = the ability to keep the elbow high during the extend phase, and not many people can optimize all that; and creating a vertical forearm while leaving the upper arm horizontal requires strength in muscles you’re almost never going to use absent actually swimming that way. you use minor muscle groups in strange ways. i mean, think of any other action in life requiring this muscular movement.
so, you can’t use that technique if you haven’t developed the musculature, and you can’t develop the muscles unless you know how to swim with that technique. ergo, almost nobody does it. but, “almost nobody” does not mean top swimmers don’t swim that way. it’s not just hackett and thorpe swimming like that, it’s almost everyone in the 400m and 1500m olympic finals.
i have found one strength move you can do out of the water: you’re standing on the ground, but bent over 90° at the waist. make something like a pommel to rest your upper arm on (horizontally), and do your elastic pulls that way. maybe you’re standing behind a large, overstuffed chair and resting your upper arm on the back of the chair. something like that. this fixes your upper arm in place, and then you find out really how very weak you are when you try to pull your elastic cords.
otherwise, i wrote an article about 5 years ago called, “the high cost of good form,” which I found on our archives, but, for some reason, may not have migrated to the new architecture. it was precisely this vertical forearm i had in mind when i wrote the article. sometimes you have to swim with a temporarily slower technique in order to eventually achieve a better technique. the only way to swim with this technique is for your hand to stay near the top of the water throughout the extend phase. in the vast majority of people, the hand drifts down during the extend phase. the only way it can stay level is for your propulsion with the other hand to be solid all the way to the end of its pull, to the thigh, and for your kick, your body position, all of it, to be solid. otherwise you’ll stall.
you won’t be able to swim an entire workout like this. you’ll swim parts of a workout like this. but every week you’ll be able to swim more and more of the workout like this. the nice thing about practicing this technique is that you have to fix everything that’s wrong with your stroke, from your fingertips to your toes.
now, keep in mind, it is my view that creating this vertical forearm isn’t really about propulsion, at least, it’s not during the act of creating the vertical upper arm that you’re getting propulsion (you’re getting some, but, not any more than you would be getting swimming with a different technique). the point of the move is to create, as quickly as possible, a pulling surface horizontal to the direction you’re swimming. you’re creating a bigger pulling surface, and you’re creating it early in the pull phase, so that when you start your pull you’ve got that big “paddle” pulling more water for a longer distance. so thinks me. i might be wrong. but that’s been my view ever since i started to wrap my brain around the hackett/thorpe way of swimming earlier this decade.
If the article didn’t come over, can you copy/paste into this thread? or is it gone forever?
I think TI is correct with this. (I am a former college swimmer who would never use TI in my life)
But, EVF is only attainable if you have superior should flexibility, swimmers who can execute a good EVF are real swimmers from childhood and have developed the right shoulder flexibility.
Adults who are trying to be swimmers (without significant childhood experience) have a long uphill battle to develop the shoulders flexible for EVF.
Is it doable as an adult? ofcourse, but time in, FOCUSED TIME IN, the pool is required.
The best swimmers developed their bodies during the developmental stages in life, so it is completely natural for them.
So. TI is right, most people can’t do it, right now, but they can with time in the pool.
if i can’t find the article on our current architecture i’ll republish in the next day or so.
“I do not possess the rotator cuff flexibility it takes to perform the catch the same way I’ve seen Hackett do it.”
i’m not 100% sure it’s rotator cuff. it probably is, but the reason i don’t say rotator cuff is i’m not sure. rotator cuff would get you from forearm behind the body to forearm even with the body. but does it take you to forearm perpendicular to the body? maybe. probably. but i’m not sure.
let’s stipulate that it’s rotator cuff. are you certain that it’s rotator cuff flexibility that’s your limiter? or rotator cuff strength?
agreed i was just too lazy to type a longer response.
a question for you since you made the analogy to bike fitting. let’s say a new triathlete (never ridden more than once a week before and is completely untrained) comes in for a fit. you gladly do it for him and he is thrilled how he feels on his new bike. he finds the motivation, a coach, whatever and ends up riding his ass off and comes in the next year wanting a new fit. does he need it? will his range of motion have changed from a year of cycling vs. a year without? I ask out of curiosity since i always felt a fit is a dynamic thing that can change when other variables change. i also feel this is true in swimming. over time, range of motion improves, swimming specific strength improves, etc… how did an elite swimmer develop that strength and range of motion? i don’t think it was from spending just 45 minutes 3 days a week doing drills up and down the pool. but that’s rehashing about 30 old threads and a whole other can o worms
agreed i was just too lazy to type a longer response.
a question for you since you made the analogy to bike fitting. let’s say a new triathlete (never ridden more than once a week before and is completely untrained) comes in for a fit. you gladly do it for him and he is thrilled how he feels on his new bike. he finds the motivation, a coach, whatever and ends up riding his ass off and comes in the next year wanting a new fit. does he need it? will his range of motion have changed from a year of cycling vs. a year without? I ask out of curiosity since i always felt a fit is a dynamic thing that can change when other variables change. i also feel this is true in swimming. over time, range of motion improves, swimming specific strength improves, etc… how did an elite swimmer develop that strength and range of motion? i don’t think it was from spending just 45 minutes 3 days a week doing drills up and down the pool. but that’s rehashing about 30 old threads and a whole other can o worms
Heh, no. It’s much more time than that, and sport specific stretching as well. When I was at the top of my game swim wise, I could hold my arms straight out in front of me, palms together, and then bring them straight back (Like a reverse fly motion) to within about 6-8" of each other. With assistance, I could cross my arms by about a foot. But, we also spent about 1/2 hour a day doing dryland stretching as well as the workouts.
Now, even with assistance, I’m barely able to get to where they touch in back. This limits me when I’m doing butterfly, and to some extent backstroke.
And regarding your question on bike fit, yes, fit is dynamic and changes. Take this “new triathlete”. Unless he/she has been a practicing athlete in other sports, the hamstrings and lower back are apt to be very tight and ROM limiting. Over the year as they cycle, they will loosen up some (Especially if the triathlete is at all intelligent and spends some time stretching), and they should be able to get a lower position the next time around.
John
It probably true but it also has alot to do with who is going to show up at a TI clinic. Lots and lots of competitive swimmers can mimic the strokes of Phelps, Hackett et al. Stroke mechanics alone are not what differentiate those guys from the local age group kids.
I think the point being made on the video is, that if you can swim like Phelps or Hackett do (technique, not speed), you are not going to be at a TI clinic. Nothing wrong with TI but their audiance is several levels down in the world of swimming talent. Anyone with virtually any type of competitive swimming background does not need TI. If you have enough natural talent that you end up swimming with the local masters group, you are not going to TI. Its really only people who are somewhere between basic swim lessons and some type of semi organized training that they are after. So, yes, in that group, its probably very rare for someone to show up who has any hope of doing a vertical forearm but that does not mean that over the whole population that ability is rare.
TI is the swimming version of snake-oil.
To some extent, I agree. But, if you have never swum before, and have absolutely no access to a coach that has a clue, then TI is a last resort that will work to teach you not to drown. Your stroke will be slow and ugly, but it will serve the purpose.
However, I lost all respect for Terry after reading some of the atrocious physiology claims that he has on his website to hoodwink the unwary.
John
Like, Non-relaxed swimmers have more CO2 in their blood which weighs more than O2 and thus leads to a lack of buoyancy?
the only way to swim with this technique is for your hand to stay near the top of the water throughout the extend phase. in the vast majority of people, the hand drifts down during the extend phase. the only way it can stay level is for your propulsion with the other hand to be solid all the way to the end of its pull, to the thigh, and for your kick, your body position, all of it, to be solid. otherwise you’ll stall.
I agree with just about everything you said except the highlighted words above. One other way is for your hand entry to be very near full arm extension, such that the time between hand entry and full extension is very short. Enter, roll/extend, pull in quick succession. Seems to work for me, as I get no champagne from kick.
“I do not possess the rotator cuff flexibility it takes to perform the catch the same way I’ve seen Hackett do it.”
i’m not 100% sure it’s rotator cuff. it probably is, but the reason i don’t say rotator cuff is i’m not sure. rotator cuff would get you from forearm behind the body to forearm even with the body. but does it take you to forearm perpendicular to the body? maybe. probably. but i’m not sure.
let’s stipulate that it’s rotator cuff. are you certain that it’s rotator cuff flexibility that’s your limiter? or rotator cuff strength?
Yes, absolutely certain.
And the previous poster who pointed out that it’s developed by childhood swimmers is probably completely correct. For those of us starting later in life, especially now over 40 and with a little history of sketchy rotator cuffs and heavily muscled will probably find it impossible to do it quite the way the pros do. That’s all I heard the TI instructor saying…I didn’t interpret him to say that you don’t hinge the elbow and that you don’t get your forearm vertical as early as you can.
But that being said, I’m going to still strive to increase my shoulder flexibility and work every angle I can for swim improvement.
With assistance, I could cross my arms by about a foot. But, we also spent about 1/2 hour a day doing dryland stretching as well as the workouts.
Now, even with assistance, I’m barely able to get to where they touch in back
There is something about swimming flexibility that is improved by swimming (and the inevitable dryland stretching too). Its not totally just a natural gift. I don’t think I am a particularly flexible person but when I was swimming seriously, my shoulders were like noodles. However, my legs were always tight. After 25 years away from serious swimming, my shoulders are pretty tight. I used to be able to cross my arms behind my back up past the elbows (with someone helping me of course). Now I have trouble even reaching into my cycling jersey pockets 
“I get no champagne from kick.”
very funny i get it. never heard that turn before. did you make that up? can i steal it and popularize it myself before you get any traction with it?
about getting no champagne from kick. me neither. how much propulsion do you think is gotten by an elite distance swimmer from a 2- or 4-beat kick? for me, the kick is not about propulsion, rather it’s part of the aggregation of movements that keep the body position correct. part of that aggregation includes feet on top of the water. if your kick just succeeds in keeping your feet very near the water’s surface, the kick has done its most important job. but if you don’t keep your feet near or at the surface, good luck keeping your forearm parallel to the surface during the extend phase.