Thoughts on the Democrats (not a troll)

The Coffee Shop
1

For once I would like to have a dialogue (no name calling or excuse making) on what people feel about the state of the Democrat party. Personally I feel they are in more of a disaray than the Republicans. I feel that way because there appears to be a lack of common core principals they can all unite around. Anyway just my 2 cents.

I mentioned in another thread that I think Hillary is positioning herself more and more to be in the mix for the presidency in 2008. With all the talk about how the Republican party has messed things up this “should” be the opening the democrats need to make some huge gains in the next election and again in 2008. I say should because my feeling is it won’t happen and its not just because I am such a partisan right winger. The issue is that even though the Republican party has made some mistakes for the most part they (we) are united. The base remains strong and committed to the same core values that carried the day in the last several elections. Unlike the Democrats who are really spread along the spectrum from the new Hillary to the Michael Moore and George Soros types. They are really split on how they view things. An example is this morning Tim Robbins said " ‘Hillary Clinton can kiss my butt… That ridiculous, ridiculous statement she’s made on Iraq.’ I am not so sure that what Hillary is doing is going to win over the far left wing base of the party or even the moderates. Money talks and I think Moveon.org and others will be a key factor in who gets the Democratic nod in 2008. I can’t imagine it will be anyone who is out there in favor of the war. If its not someone like Hillary and its someone really far left there won’t be enough votes to win.

2

I’ll weigh in.

I’m really hoping they will come out with a positive, affirmative platform outlining their plans on the war, the economy, education, immigration, etc. Whether I agree with them or not. And “We don’t like what Bush has done” isn’t going to cut it.

I’d like to see the same for the Republicans. “They’re flip-flopping political hacks” won’t cut it from them, either.

Something along the lines of: “We think A, B, and C are the key problems in Immigration, and we plan to fix it by doing X, Y, and Z.”

They certainly can talk about how X, Y, and Z are better than the opposition’s T, U, and V solutions, or about how D, E, and F (the opposition’s key problem set) aren’t really what’s wrong (as opposed to A/B/C), but only if they firmly outline A, B, C, X, Y, and Z.

I know this is heretical, but let’s PLEASE talk about the issues, what the problems are, and how to fix them and STOP all the partisan bashing.

I think I’ll drop over dead if I hear one of them say, “My opponent has some good ideas in area K, but I think a better approach would be to …”

I’ll be watching with interest what happens to Hillary. I think, win or lose, her campaign will write a new book in politics. It will show just how important (or not) the far-fringe base really is. But I think there will be a similar, if less dramatic test for the Repubs. There are a lot of fiscal conservatives that are crowing about the current leadership’s spending policies…

Should be a very interesting pair of elections!

3

As a democrat, I can say that I am very troubled by our lack of unifying vision and our seemingly endless enthusiasm for swinging in pitches in the dirt.

It’s very early for 2008, so there’s plenty of time for a viable candidate to emerge. Think back 4 terms ago (midway thru 41’s term) and Bill Clinton wasn’t even on the radar yet.

We need someone who can re-claim the rhetorical center by making a clearly articulated review of Democratic positions, and how they differ from actual GOP policies/actions over the past 6-8 years. Moreover, this needs to be a focused review of major issues, not every little thing that pisses us off (there are many, but they distract from the big ones).

My personal view is that I hope Hillary doesn’t gain any traction, because I think she would do a better job galvinizing the GOP base than in enhancing the Dem base.

If we can find a populist who served in the military and who regularly attends church, I think we will be in good shape.

4

I’m not sure if I’m the best to comment on this discussion about Dems, but I’ll give it a shot.

First, I would be ecstatic to vote for Republicans again if they would return to what I consider Republican values. Smaller government, states rights, individual freedom, and fiscal sanity are key. Unfortunately, that’s not the group in power right now and I have had to go with the lesser of two evils in the last few elections.

That being said, the Dem party does appear to be in disarray. But I don’t see that as necessarily a bad thing. Just like the Republican party, there are many ideas and platforms being floated. Some are good, most are aweful.

I’ve been intrigued by the Blue Dog Dems. They seem to have more fiscal sense than most in Congress even if I don’t always agree with all of their stances. http://www.c-span.org/questions/weekly55.htm

Some point to the lack of legislation passed by Congress as evidence of Dems being bereft of ideas. While I might also believe Dems seem mostly bereft of ideas, that’s what happens when you are totally out of power. It is virtually impossible to get Dem ideas passed through even the most minor committee, much less the full House or Senate. Heck, in development of the Energy Bill there was a long time when Republicans actually barred Dems from attending the meetings.

In looking back over the post, I’ve really been off on tangents. But that seems to be the picture of my currently adopted party. Does that help at all?

5

Sure the far left will whine about Hillary, but as long as she’s a democrap, the far left will vote for her. The ain’t gonna vote for the repugnicans, I’ll tell you that!

Democrats will vote along party lines, just as the far right voted for Bush. Trouble is, right wingers don’t bitch or bitch very very very little, see right wing bloggers/radio hosts for proof) - whereas far lefties whine about everybody including their own.

6

We need someone who can re-claim the rhetorical center by making a clearly articulated review of Democratic positions, and how they differ from actual GOP policies/actions over the past 6-8 years.

What specific policies and positions would you like to see the Democrats articulate?

7

I cant disagree with anything in your post. It is still a long time until the election though. I hope the GOP bring in a more moderate candidate like Mcain. That would make me happy. I think the republican party has moved away from their core values. I would like to see them return to that platform.

8

John Kerry’s response to Bush’s address on the Iraq War was really just so much bad rhetorical non convincing tripe. It was like we never disagreed with this but we don’t quite agree with it either, but we don’t want to commit too much to a specific position on it, because we have nothing really much to add beyond our objections for the past three years, but now that the situation has changed we don’t really know and I don’t want to say anything that will come back to bite my ass. All I know is that we agree to disagree because we are Democrats.

To top it all off he said that by reducing our troops in Iraq, we will be reducing the incentive for insurgence attacks. …Yeah right …good one! Maybe you should go to Iraq and be a volunteer to be one of those left behind to fight after the troops have been partially withdrawn.

All you Bush critics, here’s your reason why George Junior won the Presidency …twice!

BTW heard of the recent thing ? The insurgence are starting up their old habit of kidnaping aid workers with the intention of beheadings after labelling them as spies.

9

I think you give moveon.org too much credit (although I did give them money in 2004). I don’t get my marching orders from Michael Moore and I don’t know anyone else who does either. Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore tend to get a disproportiate share of the national spotlight. I prefer to listen to moderate democrats like Lieberman but unfortunately the cerebral ideas don’t get as much attention in the press as the sensationalist story. The party is in trouble. If we nominate Hillary the right will be fired up like never before and she will be morphed into Billary. I think everyone is tired of that kind of tactic but I doubt it will backfire on the republicans. We need someone with clean hands and background, a fresh face and a good message that we can rally around and draw in the Reagan Democrats from 1980 and 84.

If I was a republican I would be very worried about 2006 and 08. The party is in a shambles and the american people are beginning to notice that the emperor has no clothes. The party is starting to walk away from Bush and by 06 they will be sprinting. In O8 it will be “Bush who?” The only way out for the republicans to regain their position would be for Cheney to be the fall guy and resign (I think it’s inevitable after 06) and for Bush to nominate his heir apparent as VP.

It will be interesting to watch. I predict that the democrats will nominate Mark Warner in 2008, governor of VA. He cleaned up VA’s budget mess and is leaving a surplus for his successor, also a democrat in a republican state, he has clean hands with respect to the war and there are no obvious skeletons in his closet.

10

I would love to hear them articulate ideas on SS, Medicare, Medicaid and the entire fiscal disaster our demographics is bringing.

Immigration.

Education

Iraq

Islamic terrorism

That will do for starters. Not holding my breath.

11

The only thing I like about the democratic party is that they are not united. There are numerous portions of the political spectrum represented, from the far left to the more moderate center. The problem with this approach is a lack of focus and a lack of leadership. That’s what’s going on today.

The repubs, a mono-block of ideas and unity, are respected by their base for that unity. However, depending on the leadership of the party, the repubs can easily put the interests of their party ahead of the interests of the country. This is what’s happening with the repubs right now.

Double - edged sword, with the losers being the american people. It seems to me the thing in the country’s best interest is to have both parties in power at the same time, like the repubs in congress and clinton in the white house during the 90s. Despite the vitriol and bullshit spin from both sides, each party did good things for the country that were in alignment with their party’s goals. Shrinking federal gov’t, tax cuts, bombing, welfare reform, more police officers, more environmental protection, less regulation. All were accomplished during this time.

I don’t know a whole lot about the jimmy carter era, but it seems like the country was generally going downhill during his presidency, when the dems controlled congress and the white house. I could be wrong on this though.

All dem control - bad. All repub control - bad.

12

Easy. Increase funding for them. Fund SS, fund medicare, fund border control and immigration. More taxes on those who can afford to pay them. We are fooling ourselves by ignoring the disaster that is right around the corner. If you want good service from the government or anywhere else you have to pay for it.

Bush proposes a tax cut of $60 billion for the wealthy while also cutting $60 billion from programs for the poor and the elderly. That’s immoral.

13

Fine, but I am not hearing any Democrat advocating tax increases except on a very small percentage of the population. There is not enough money in those brackets to make much of a difference no matter the tax rate.

This is why I want the Democrats to step up to a debate. This is also why they will not.

Nothing, anywhere, in any way is being cut by $60 billion or even 60 cents. Come back from the alternate reality. The water here is fine despite the problems.

14

Oh God, first Smartasscoach made his first post in the LR, and now I am replying to a political thread. At least, it was couched well as a non-emotional legit, exchange of ideas.

As a life long Repub, but with some surprisingly liiberal views on some supposedly core Repub ideas, I want to know what happen to the likes of Bradley, in the Democratic party. I liked a lot of his ideas, and if he had made it to the party nomination, it would have required a lot of thought on who to vote for.

From the viewpoint over at the right here, it just seems that the Democrats like to eat their young.

15

While I agree with you about funding, I think everyone should recognize that the system sucks. You’re pouring money into a giant hole. Education, for example, we spend more per student than any other country in the world yet our students rank 17th in a lot of categories. We’re driving around in a hummer, the repubs are saying we should spend less on gas, and the dems are saying we should fully fund the gas hog. Both are wrong. We need a new vehicle.

We need more people on the ground and more educational programs embeded into them. A ex-gf of mine who worked in social services told me a story about how hard she worked to get one of her families $1000 to help them with back bills and much needed repairs on the house, and then the dad went out and bought an $800 stereo. They gave him the money and then their job was over. We need to follow people further than we do and educate them about choices.

That’ll be the day when we have an educated public that can think about these issues and not just yell about money.

16

I think you give moveon.org too much credit (although I did give them money in 2004). I don’t get my marching orders from Michael Moore and I don’t know anyone else who does either. Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore tend to get a disproportiate share of the national spotlight. I prefer to listen to moderate democrats like Lieberman but unfortunately the cerebral ideas don’t get as much attention in the press as the sensationalist story. The party is in trouble. If we nominate Hillary the right will be fired up like never before and she will be morphed into Billary. I think everyone is tired of that kind of tactic but I doubt it will backfire on the republicans. We need someone with clean hands and background, a fresh face and a good message that we can rally around and draw in the Reagan Democrats from 1980 and 84.

I am not so sure I agree about moveon. not being a major player in the Democratic party. They are heavily funded and many powerful Hollywood elitists are big time contributors. They also wield a lot of power and influence. The fund raising capability of the Hollywood left is amazing. As for Michael Moore, you may not take marching orders from him but when he is given a high seat of honor at Democratic functions it is very telling about where the party is headed. Another thing is moveon. continues to be out front against the war and is already making it known if you are a Democrat and support the war you will not have their support. This from moveon. this morning on Joe Lieberman.

The liberal activist group MoveOn.org says it’s prepared to back a Democratic challenger to Senator Joe Lieberman in the 2006 primary because of the Connecticut Democrat’s continued support for the war in Iraq. MoveOn Washington director Tom Matzzie tells the Hartford Courant that the No. 1 question his Connecticut members ask him is “What are we going to do about Joe Lieberman?” Matzzie says if those 50,000 members ask, MoveOn will work to defeat Lieberman over the war issue, adding, “Just like he didn’t realize his presidential ambitions were in trouble, he doesn’t understand the war in Iraq isn’t going anywhere.”

17

I have to agree with ATG on this on tootall. Much of the public posturing by Pelosi and others for rapid withdrawal has nothing to do with policy and everything to do with fundraising. Moveon.org is a giant. They flexed some muscle a few months ago with a small Washington demonstration and were able to summon the who’s who of Democratic Senators to an otherwise nothing event.

They are big time.

The Democrat Party has changed big time in just the last five years. Lieberman was the VP nominee then. Only five years later, big players want him out of office.

18

“The party is in a shambles and the american people are beginning to notice that the emperor has no clothes.”

While this is true I don’t see it as a real problem for Republicans. The Democrats have nothing to offer. There is no reason for those who have lost faith in the Republican party, me, to go to the other side. The Democracts allow their agenda to be told by Moore and Sheehan in the media then sit in office and do nothing.

I believe we will see lower voter turn out and votes even stronger on nothing more then party lines. I don’t see anything changing anytime soon. This of course makes me even more proud to be a non-voter.

19

Pelosi has become a joke. She’s putting herself to the left of most democrats with her call for a withdrawal from Iraq. The republicans are going to latch onto this and cause more trouble for the democrats. Thanks Pelosi.

20

I agree with the joke part, but I never thought of her any other way. I don’t have any reason to think she is to the left of the majority of the party anymore. Polls do not agree with you.

Tootall, the party is rapidly running away from moderates like you. That is bad for the party, bad for the country and even bad for the Republican Party.