ITU guys ranked in the top 50, and any good swimmers outside the top 50 would not get their asses handed to them by girls. Maybe the top 10 or 15 girls in the world in the 1500m, but not in shorter distances. I’d assume that most of those guys can swim a 400m at or under 4:20 pretty much year round, and a few “tapered and shaved” could threaten Janet Evans world record 4:03.
i’ll have to check…i just remember hearing about that split time.
ITU guys ranked in the top 50, and any good swimmers outside the top 50 would not get their asses handed to them by girls. Maybe the top 10 or 15 girls in the world in the 1500m, but not in shorter distances. I’d assume that most of those guys can swim a 400m at or under 4:20 pretty much year round, and a few “tapered and shaved” could threaten Janet Evans world record 4:03.
hmmm…you are assuming a little too much. growing up in san diego, i swam for north coast aquatics, which is probably considered the best (or was best in the 90s) age group swim program in san diego. at the time i didn’t really know who they were other than the funky triathlete bunch, but chris maccormack, craig alexander, craig walton, michellie jone, and a handful of other at that time short course racers would swim with us during the long course season. they were solid swimmers (great swimmers for triathletes), but they were not nearly as good as the top high school girls. i now realize how talented they are at swimming when considering the fact they had to balance two other sports on top of what they were doing, but there is no way that only 10 to 15 women in the world could beat them. we had a whole lane of people who swam faster than them, because we were swimmers and all we did was swim. i am not saying that with six months of swimming only training that they could not beat the top women, but the fact is we make them out to be better swimmers than they are. 3:05-3:10 for a 300 meter swim with a wetsuit in a pack where drafting is prevalent is not super fast. it is certainly different than 3:05 in a LCM pool. don’t overanalyze this, they are phenomenal athletes, but they are not great swimmers, they are great swimmers among those who also bike and run. btw, 4:03 is super fast.
OT, sorta: I don’t think the top swimmers are way faster now than 20 years ago: In high school (18 years ago) I recall a coach saying “48 freestyle guys are a dime a dozen in California.” Fast in Oregon (where I swam) was under 50 with 46+ winning State most years. Good enough to swim D1 but it would take a lot of work to make the NCAA finals.
Question: What stroke/event is the most faster now compared to 30 years ago? (sorry for the poor grammar) I am going to guess breastroke, maybe backstroke??? Distance?
Flanagan,
The thread starter, Trimike, states this mid level pro-triathlete swam a 4:35 in HS. Janet Evans holds the NCAA record for the 500 free at 4:34.39 (if memory serves) that she set in 1990 while at Stanford I think.
So do you think this guy is that much slower now or that he’s the fastest triathlete swimmer out there?
Maybe trimike can ask him how fast he thinks he could swim a pool 500 now and let us know.
I’ll take the top triathlete swimmers over the top high school girl swimmers any day (to win a swim race that is).
Dave
In the US high schoolers swim the 500 mtr in HS dual meets - if the meet is in a 25 mtr pool.
Back in the day it was a 400 mtr, but a few yrs back the national HS fed switched it to 500 mtr.
Not logical at all…since most of the world swims 400 mtr.
500 metres or yards?? I would have thought the latter, since most HS pools are in yards.
Do you remember what the conversion factor is for metres to yards. I seem to remember adding 11% going from yards to metres, so that would mean multiplying metres times by 90.9% to go the other way.
Just wanted to depress myself and see what my PB is compared to the NCAA standards.
USA swimming has top 100 times report since 1965 for age groupers.
Here’s some interesting stats:
Girls 17-18 Long Course (50m)
1500 free 100th fastest time = 16:51
400 free 100th time = 4:17
Girls 17-18 Short Course Yards (25y)
1650 free 100th time = 16:29
500 free 100th time = 4:47
Boys 17-18 LCM
1500 100th time = 15:47
400 100th time = 3:58
Boys 17-18 SCY
1650 100th time = 15:27
500 100th time = 4:25
Dan
you’re reminding me of high school, when my brother and I went to visit family in Florida one xmas. we swam with the local high school team. He and I were both pretty decent for our school, but these kids blew our doors off.
46 high won’t even make the DIII meet anymore…kid from Wash U went 44.7 this weekend…DIII record is a 43.
My best was 4:36 and I don’t think I could do 5 mins right now. Lots of fHS girls can do sub 5:15 As for how I swim in tris, I was 5th out of the water at SOMA, right behind Tim DeBoom. Although with a month or two I could get sub 5 for sure, but I would have to sacrifice some cycling time and running time. Believe what you want regarding the elite tri guys, but they are not great swimmers at this point in their lives. Andy Potts was a great swimmer, now he is a great triathlete, but he is probably only a good swimmer now.
Andy Potts beat Tim Deboom by 1:40 in the swim at Memphis in May. I know you can’t compare swims, blah blah blah, effort levels blah blah blah. 1:40 is 10% faster. That’s significant.
Potts was 3:52ish in the 400m free in college. 4:20 would be a walk in the park for him. 4:03 would take a month of solid swim training at most. The dude went 4:22 in the 400IM (LCM).
4:20 is not a fast time for an ITU triathlete.
For what it’s worth, only 4 girls went under 4:20 at the US Open last weekend (only one went 4:15, and she is a legit threat to Janet Evans NCAA records in the 500 and 1650)
.
The US Open seemed pretty weak on the women’s distance side. Only girl that swam well and rested was Hayley Piersol.
Yards-meters conversion applet- plug the numbers in and go-
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/results/conversions.asp
I can remember pulling some names, numbers, and times a couple years back, and the data seemed to suggest that the longer the swim race, the less the disasvantage the women had compared to the men. Lots of women who didn’t have the speed to keep up with the good 500 guy, but would be right there with that same guy over a 1500 or 1650.
“Lots of women who didn’t have the speed to keep up with the good 500 guy, but would be right there with that same guy over a 1500 or 1650”
That’s why I said the the ITU guys would fair better against the girls in races shorter than 1650.
Even if the US Open was weak (it always is fairly weak, compared to US Trials or Summer Nationals), Adrienne Bender won, and she went 15:50 her freshman year in the 1650y free. Most ITU guys wouldn’t mind being able to crank the mile out in that.
At US Olympic Trials the 8 women’s finalists went under 4:20, but only 2-3 went under 4:10.
Andy Potts beat Tim Deboom by 1:40 in the swim at Memphis in May. I know you can’t compare swims, blah blah blah, effort levels blah blah blah. 1:40 is 10% faster. That’s significant.
Potts was 3:52ish in the 400m free in college. 4:20 would be a walk in the park for him. 4:03 would take a month of solid swim training at most. The dude went 4:22 in the 400IM (LCM).
4:20 is not a fast time for an ITU triathlete.
Obviously analyzing open water pack swim times is a hopelessly nebulous game. However, if we get enough times and cross reference different races and athletes we can see some trends and make some guesses about things. Sara McLarty’s 2004-2005 seasons make this process a bit easier.
2004: best 400m time of 4:11.3, which is 4th best US time for the year (eight US women sub 4:12 and a bunch more close to that); lots of fast swimming across the board in an Olympic year. Untapered earlier in the year before Trials she went 4:13-4:15
2005 (triathlon season)
a. Fastest womens swim by about 45 seconds at Bellingham ITU over lindquist. Beat fastest mens time by 15 seconds, which was accomplished by a pack of about 10 athletes
b. About 45 seconds slower than lead mens pack at Alcatraz (excluding Walton). Similar time to Gemmell, Carter, and Plata.
c. Third overall swim time at Chicago behind Potts (~50 seconds) and long distance open water swim specialist John Kenny. Hunter Kemper was about 20 seconds slower with fourth fastest time.
Again, can’t draw any firm conclusions because we don’t know how much the men are helped by a having a huge pack (vs. McLarty’s almost solo swims) or how currents might have changed between mens and womens waves or if she was holding back in the water knowing she would inevitably get swallowed up by a bike pack. I’m not qualified to predict whether the tri results indicate sub 4:20/400m for ITU guys, but those are the facts above.
Andy Potts beat Tim Deboom by 1:40 in the swim at Memphis in May. I know you can’t compare swims, blah blah blah, effort levels blah blah blah. 1:40 is 10% faster. That’s significant.
Potts was 3:52ish in the 400m free in college. 4:20 would be a walk in the park for him. 4:03 would take a month of solid swim training at most. The dude went 4:22 in the 400IM (LCM).
4:20 is not a fast time for an ITU triathlete.
Obviously analyzing open water pack swim times is a hopelessly nebulous game. However, if we get enough times and cross reference different races and athletes we can see some trends and make some guesses about things. Sara McLarty’s 2004-2005 seasons make this process a bit easier.
2004: best 400m time of 4:11.3, which is 4th best US time for the year (eight US women sub 4:12 and a bunch more close to that); lots of fast swimming across the board in an Olympic year. Untapered earlier in the year before Trials she went 4:13-4:15
2005 (triathlon season)
a. Fastest womens swim by about 45 seconds at Bellingham ITU over lindquist. Beat fastest mens time by 15 seconds, which was accomplished by a pack of about 10 athletes
b. About 45 seconds slower than lead mens pack at Alcatraz (excluding Walton). Similar time to Gemmell, Carter, and Plata.
c. Third overall swim time at Chicago behind Potts (~50 seconds) and long distance open water swim specialist John Kenny. Hunter Kemper was about 20 seconds slower with fourth fastest time.
Again, can’t draw any firm conclusions because we don’t know how much the men are helped by a having a huge pack (vs. McLarty’s almost solo swims) or how currents might have changed between mens and womens waves or if she was holding back in the water knowing she would inevitably get swallowed up by a bike pack. I’m not qualified to predict whether the tri results indicate sub 4:20/400m for ITU guys, but those are the facts above.
I think that just shows that not many tri guys can do a sub 4:20. You are right though in saying it is very hard to compare. I am willing to bet if I got back into 4:20 LCM/4:50 SCY shape that I would have no trouble swimming with the best. That is just based on feel and experience. When I was around that speed as a sophomore in HS, the tri guys who swam with us (see post above–including walton, macca and others) were not as fast…that is all I am saying.
The US Open seemed pretty weak on the women’s distance side. Only girl that swam well and rested was Hayley Piersol.
hayley wasn’t rested
itu guys would get their asses handed to them in a swim race as well…by girls even.
stop all this yards talk!!! noone swims yards!
Everyone (non-swimmer) swims yards in America!
you bloody americans need to get with the program!!! 
We are the program!
On another note what happened to the US switching to metrics? I remember being in grade school about 20something years ago and learning metrics because we were going to switch, but it never happened.