The vegetarianism thread--wow

The discussion of vegetarianism and nutrition has gotten pretty heated in that thread. Passionate folks are saying all kinds of interesting but contradictory things, such as: you need a high protein diet, you need a high carb diet, you need to hug Mr. Atkins, a no meat diet is best, or iron intake is fine as long a you are not doing Ironman distances, etc. Well, here is a wrench thrown into the works.

The human body and human race is amazingly adaptable. That is why there are over 6 billion of us on this planet. And we human beings can survive on an amazing range of good or crappy food for a surprisingly long time. But what exact diet we human beings are best evolved for is still in dispute, even by anthropologists who have studied this for a lifetime.

But perhaps we can agree on a few things. Whatever diet we ARE best evolved to consume (if there even is only one such diet) is probably impossible to reproduce today for about 99% of us (many of the foods, meats, whatever, in their original forms, are simply unavailable).

The next assumption that is probably valid is that observing what our nearest living cousins (the great apes, especially those that share well over 98% of our genetic material) eat in UNDISTURBED conditions is probably (read: probably, NOT absolutely) a good hint of what we might be designed to eat. Mitigating factors to all of this would be: do any apes still live in undisturbed conditions? Do any apes do Ironman races? Are we human beings designed to do 10 hour endurance events?

Another assumption that might carry some weight is that it may be wise to be initially very skeptical and wary of “new”, fad type diets that promise stupendous results, especially those that focus on weight loss (the current obsession of Western civilization) as their main selling point. And especially those that promise to make a lot money for someone (usually not the dieter, but more likely the book writer, the TV guest, the seminar speaker, the supplement makers, a particular agricultural lobby, etc.).

So where does that leave us? Well, I believe that since there is such an incredible range of what we (at least here in the wealthy developed world) can readily choose to eat, we should consider factors other than just what the “ideal” diet is from a evolutionary standpoint. For example, might there be situations where it is actually better for our health to eat something we are probably not ‘evolved’ to eat (say, organic brown rice) than eating something we might be ‘evolved’ to eat (say, meat from a cow that has been killed 4 weeks ago after living a hellishly tortured and drugged up life)? Every situation is different and the SOURCE of one’s plants, animals, or titanium can be as important as the TYPE of item.

Life is politics and the way we consume has an enormous impact on the world, probably much more than whether you voted for Bush or Gore. In the diet area, I am not a vegetarian, but I do my best not to consume any ‘factory farmed’ animal products irregardless of what I think of what I am ‘evolved’ to eat. Because it doesn’t take much of a stretch for me to see that, considering how we run the places, to the critters in the factory farm “camps”, all people are Nazis. And I think that eating products from animal Auschwitz’s can’t be good for my health or anyone else’s. If that means I have to bend and undergo some trivial inconveniences in my life, I think I’ll manage.

Sorry, can’t agree with everything you’ve said.

“observing what our nearest living cousins eat.”

I find evolution to be a horribly flawed theory, only passed on because so many people have so much at stake believing it, and because they have nothing better to go on.  I've tried to stear clear on debates like this in the past, but since this one involves "triathlon nutrition" I'll bite.  (No pun intended.)

I will agree that at one point we were probably mostly, if not all vegetarian.  The difference between evoltution, and what I choose to believe is that we are not evolving.   I believe the human condition is deteriorating.  But now, going totally vegetarian simply doesn't work well.

Okay, back to agreeing with you.  You're probably right about alot of original foods being un available.  I don't have thing against people eating meat, but I do try and avoid to much interms of "processed" foods.

I just dont give it that much thought…all I know is that if a Wolf can eat a cow…so will I…they are just so tasty! Even better - take a cow fillet and wrap in in some pig fat!!! MMMMMmmmmmm Good! My only thing is that I try to not eat any major Disney animals, that leaves out Mice, Bunnies, Dickies, Bambies and a few other cuddly critters.

Lack of protien has that bunch on edge over there. I’m sure they could sort their differences out much more amicably over a cheeseburger.

RP

record9ti. i am disappointed in you, sir! i thought you lived in wisconsin. surely if you wrap some cow flesh in pig fat you intend also to melt some cheese or near-cheese food product on it as well, do you not? and of course, place it in a white flour bun with butter. can i interest you in a nice dish of egg yolk filled vanilla custard for dessert ???

anyway, i was a very close to vegan veg. for over ten years. now i am not. i noticed not a whit of difference either way.

My only thing is that I try to not eat any major Disney animals, that leaves out Mice, Bunnies, Dickies, Bambies and a few other cuddly critters. What on earth are dickies?

Just to spark things up a bit… Senor Gopher… evolution is the theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations. It does not suppose a superior generation, only an adapted one.

It is our brains that have enabled us to become weaker or “deteriorating” as you put it. Long long ago, for example, man that was nearsighted perished because he could not feed or fend for himself. Since he did not make it to maturity, he did not “breed” and pass on those genes. Same for weak, small, slow, etc. man. However, as man’s brains increased in size he began to develop tools and a social structure that assisted those ill equipped for the wilds. The “weaker” ( I am one of those… I wear glasses, am small and slow, LOL!) were able to survive, and pass their genes on to successive generations.

I think, in your way of thinking, you might say that we’ve “evolved” ( as you might say: gotten better) intellectually, but “deteriorated” ( as you might say: gotten worse) physically. In some ways… maybe.

As for the food discussion… I think different things work for different people.

I frequently disagree totally with what you write but I do believe you have this spot on. If cows didn’t want to be eaten they shouldn’t taste so good and they shoul be cuter. I can eat bunny I just can’t be involved in the killing. And what the heck IS a Dickie (Dicky?)?

Why would we assume that the best diet is the one that we evolved on? Not even does that ignore the fact that there wasn’t much choice a lot of the time but what about the small fact that even living to reproductive age was against the odds? Can’t remember where I read it now but some anthropologist wrote that 30000 years ago the average human lifespan was almost assuredly less than 19 years.

I want to emulate that for my diet? Pretty much anything can get one to age 19…hell…most kids eating the big arches diet make it well beyond that. I think there is basically zero link between what “we” were forced to eat thousands of years ago and what is ‘best’ for us.

OT

Now, so evolution was brought up…(and a “Dickie” is just like a “Duckie” but with a spelling error)…imagine if you will – that evolution had taken on step off of where it went and the male human had only one kinda small change. Instead of millions and millions of tiny sperm that are expelled for reproduction…we had sperm – singular. Much like a woman and the egg once a month. Now this is no normal tiny sperm – no sir. This is a pollywog sized sperm that enters the woman and EATS the egg! Why are we men messing around with teeny tiny itsy bitsy sperm? We need sperm that can truly depict the insatiable desire men have to breed (or at least practice breeding). Had evolution taken just one small step to the right…just one little change…we men, would have pollywog sperm. There are so many questions that this brings up in my pea brain…most to sick for this particular site. I do however think that for CERTAIN if sperm were pollywog sized certain men would have sperm farms…we would possibly even feel guilt killing that pollywog sized sperm as it hit the floor, sheets, or….never mind – I cant go there on this site. Imagine if you will how easy it would be to prevent unwanted children if sperm were big enough to catch by hand! And be sure you got it….my oh my isn’t evolution grand?

This is the kind of thing I think about while I am in a dark room on rollers for 5 hours at a time…And as far as cheese on the cow…OH YEAH!!! Take a nice 8oz Fillet Minion…wrap that sucker in bacon…THICK bacon. Put it on a HOT HOT grill…no gas for me Hank Hill…I will use charcoal…then…when it is done…you top that steak with some fresh blue cheese…my mouth is watering right now…and I am NOT from WI! I am no cheese head…I am from Illinois…I avoid going north of the “Cheddar Curtain” at all costs.

As for the food discussion… I think different things work for different people.
Saber, that sentence is gold. Well said.

Don’t know what a Dickie is but I’m not eating them either
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allow sidvicious to wade this pool and to make a superficial observation.

the nearest “natural” and/or “health” food store is Wild Oats. It caters to organic foods users as well as vegans, though it does sell meats.

observation: it has the worlds homeliest clerks and patrons. many are emaciated in appearance and many are pudgy fat with withdrawn faces. my suspician is that the vegan diet contributes to this phenomenon more than any other factor.

you guys can battle it out why this is so, or, you can say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

but is ain’t in wild oats.

sv-

Just a minor point in the debate here folks, but we don’t generally eat “cows.” Cows–female cattle with mature, intact reproductive systems, are generally used to produce milk and make baby cattle. What we usually eat are “steers,” or male cattle castrated before maturity. I know a lot of animists out there will disagree with me, but steers are not capable of abstract thought, and do not have any other natural urges other than to eat and defecate, and therefore lead perfectly happy lives up to the point where they become meat.

As for meat, my favorite red meat is venison. It is low fat, has no preservatives or artificial hormones, and is delicious if killed, cleaned, and slaughtered properly. Ted Nugent is “Da Man” as far as I am concerned.

allow me to also wade into this pool and make a few superficial observations.

there are many spots near where i live (CO) that are frequented by hunters. these spots cater to ted nugent-style and similar folk. these spots (which shall remain anonymous–i work at one) also during other times cater to backpackers and climbers and other athletes.

observation: the hunters are the fattest, whitest, dumbest, and most helpless group of people i have ever seen outside of homes for the mentally questionable. it is my suspicion that the hunter, cheap beer, TV, snowmobile, and ATV lifestyle all contribute to this phenomenon more than any other factors.

observation(2): there is no argument with the fact that, statistically, americans are the fattest people on earth. it is my suspicion that the motorized lifestyle and that the type and quantity of food we shovel down our throats contribute to this phenomenon more than any other factors.

you guys can battle it out why this is so, but, if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it ain’t in the ted nugent set.

you guys can battle it out why this is so, but, if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it ain’t in the ted nugent set.
Have you been to Milwaukee? OH MY GOD! Most of the women there look like Burl Ives! It is scarry how many fat people are just wandering around like a fall turkey. Sick! I heard that Milwaukee is the “Fattest City” in the country…I for one beleive it. What is REALLY funny to me is when a man who looks to be 18 months pregnant tells me that I look like a scrawny little pu**y - while I am trying to ride my bike in the “Road that was made fer Trucks!”.

Ted Nugent may be white, but he’s not helpless, dumb, or fat. I used to live in prime elk hunting country in CO too (Gunnison), and most of the people you are talking about are not what I or Ted would consider hunters. Taking a guided trip to be driven or ridden to a spot where you can shoot something, and then have it hauled out for you is not hunting. Same goes, in my opinion, for people who pay thousands of dollars to have someone haul their ass up Mt. Everest or to do some other type of “quest.” Many sports seem to have these kind of people, even triathlon. But, beware of judging people based on appearances. I know and hunt with some pretty tough, fat old guys–most of whom have been through things you couldn’t even imagine. After 50 combat missions in a P-51 over Europe, a stay in a Japanese POW camp, or loss of a leg in Korea, you might want to spend the rest of your life drinking beer, watching TV, and doing a little hunting too. I agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just be sure you behold the whole thing.

OrganicAthlete, a nonprofit involved in promoting healthy, plant-based diets and athletics, is looking for vegetarian, vegan, and raw food athletes for a new cycling and athletic club.

We’re also conducting an informal survey of all sports to estimate the number of athletes on a plant-based diet. We’re asking all athletes to respond to the questionnaire posted at http://www.organicathlete.org/vegsurvey.html.

Your first observation could be use to describe the female of our species, especially in the fat dept. (since we are stereotyping and bashing) the substitute could be made for hunting for deals and not meat.

I would agree that what you type is more of a statement of our overall society and you can plug in male/female and just swap their fat making preferences. At least the men in the woods took the time for a walk in nature and the only walk at the mega mall was to theBurger buddy for a super size.

"“the hunters are the fattest, whitest, dumbest, and most helpless group of people i have ever seen”

They’re not my favorite people either, but I distinguish between those who are hunters and those who are just plain killers.

I live in rural Ontario where huntin’ is considered some sort of a religion. The first two weeks of November is the deer hunt season characterized by retreating to a lodge cabin in the middle of nowhere and two weeks of a group of males drinking, snoring and farting and call it “male bonding”. These guys are fanatical and take their holidays for this. Guess their wives are happy to get rid of them. I absolutely hate this time of the year. Can’t go for a trail run for fear that some moron might accidently shoot me.

I really don’t get the attraction.

As for vegetariansim, I’m not one myself although I eat very little meat. I do believe that it is a healther diet and the world would be a better place if we weren’t meat eaters.