Kiley, maybe their isn’t a thread on this because its obvious to everyone? The body makes up the majority of drag (aero) and the how you sit on the saddle affects power production and drag…of coarse it’s the single biggest piece.
if you think it’s obvious to everyone you clearly haven’t been watching any sort of triathlon for a while.
Agreed, if it’s so obvious, why are 80+% of triathletes (that number may even apply to pros, and cycling pros) riding the wrong saddle on their TT bikes? If it’s obvious, I guess people aren’t doing much about it, maybe because it’s just too costly to test enough saddles.
As to Jim’s post, I agree that the PN3.0 has most people covered, and for those with very sensitive nerves along the ischial tuberosity, a heavily cushioned version of the same type of saddle typically does the trick. So, that means I agree that saddles aren’t quite as “personal” as some folks make them out to be. I believe that most people just haven’t tried enough saddles. They probably choose based on aesthetics and what peers are riding. If people could test 25+ saddles in a blind test for extended periods of time and provide perceptual feedback that is recorded, I am betting you would see a trend towards a very few number of saddles. Now, in my view, the single saddle that meets 95% of riders’ needs doesn’t currently exist. But, I have feeling it will soon, and from a brand not currently producing saddles.
Finding the right saddle, so one doesn’t wiggle like a morning worm thereby robbing the rider of watts, is worth lots.
In my experience, I found a 5 - 8% improvement of power (15 to 20 watts) when I found comfort on the bike, of which the saddle was probably the most important component.
And, agree, I too am losing interest of what aero wheel is the most aero. I have a Jet9 and JetDisc (23mm rim version) and I can’t see / estimate if there would be any significant delta to upgrading to more recent aero wheels.
I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn’t matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.
Same here. Best saddle I’ve ever worked with. It’s kinda crazy.
As far as Kiley’s premise, yeah… maybe. I think people are sensitive to different things. I rode thousands of miles fully rotated forward on a standard Selle Italia SLR, firm with no cut out. I was centered right on my perineum. It was fine. When the ISMs came along I was happier but my position didn’t change, nor did my power. I freikin’ hate riding in cheap shorts though.
As far as rotation, there are definitely some thing we do not yet know. I try to fit / coerce aerobar riders to rotate forward, but there certainly seems to be a small percentage of riders who just never will… and a good portion of those are world class and world champions. I just can’t quite wrap my head around emulating these riders, as anterior rotation so clearly works for the vast majority. I would be more inclined to work with enough posterior riders to gain some more insight, as I know you have. I am curious exactly how many you have tried to fit with anterior rotation unsuccessfully?
Agreed this certainly isn’t new information. Agreed saddle is the most important piece of equipment. What so many people miss though in the saddle conversation is your ability to sit on the saddle. I know that sounds funny but most people have tight something or other, disfunction, or compensation patterns that cause them to think they’re sitting square and even and they really are not even close.
When I was a bike fitter we coached so many people on working off the bike to be able to sit on the saddle correctly - Agers to pros alike. The saddle battle is great but it sometimes amounts to putting the band aid where the blood drips not on the wound.
Agreed, if it’s so obvious, why are 80+% of triathletes (that number may even apply to pros, and cycling pros) riding the wrong saddle on their TT bikes? If it’s obvious, I guess people aren’t doing much about it, maybe because it’s just too costly to test enough saddles.
As to Jim’s post, I agree that the PN3.0 has most people covered, and for those with very sensitive nerves along the ischial tuberosity, a heavily cushioned version of the same type of saddle typically does the trick. So, that means I agree that saddles aren’t quite as “personal” as some folks make them out to be. I believe that most people just haven’t tried enough saddles. They probably choose based on aesthetics and what peers are riding. If people could test 25+ saddles in a blind test for extended periods of time and provide perceptual feedback that is recorded, I am betting you would see a trend towards a very few number of saddles. Now, in my view, the single saddle that meets 95% of riders’ needs doesn’t currently exist. But, I have feeling it will soon, and from a brand not currently producing saddles.
Any information from someone claiming to know that 80% of triathletes and even pro cyclists are on the wrong saddle needs to be taken with a grain of salt…
Agreed, if it’s so obvious, why are 80+% of triathletes (that number may even apply to pros, and cycling pros) riding the wrong saddle on their TT bikes? If it’s obvious, I guess people aren’t doing much about it, maybe because it’s just too costly to test enough saddles.
As to Jim’s post, I agree that the PN3.0 has most people covered, and for those with very sensitive nerves along the ischial tuberosity, a heavily cushioned version of the same type of saddle typically does the trick. So, that means I agree that saddles aren’t quite as “personal” as some folks make them out to be. I believe that most people just haven’t tried enough saddles. They probably choose based on aesthetics and what peers are riding. If people could test 25+ saddles in a blind test for extended periods of time and provide perceptual feedback that is recorded, I am betting you would see a trend towards a very few number of saddles. Now, in my view, the single saddle that meets 95% of riders’ needs doesn’t currently exist. But, I have feeling it will soon, and from a brand not currently producing saddles.
here’s what you all say when asked: “I’d be happier if I could find a new that was more comfortable, that fit, or was more ergonomic.” below is what you chose for :
some of us realized this before some other of us did. and that there is a slick way to demo a lot of saddles quickly, as i usually offer when we do a slowtwitch road show. it’s pretty simple: you need the right saddles in your fit studio; the right tooling to demo those saddles; and some experience and expertise.
it’s very hard to find local bike shops or fitters who’ll do the very simple, not very expensive, things to solve these problems. and, sorry for the semi-hijack, but i’m about ready to unveil and champion a nationwide list of fitters who will.
I rode thousands of miles fully rotated forward on a standard Selle Italia SLR, firm with no cut out. I was centered right on my perineum. It was fine.
just because you can doesn’t mean you should or that it was healthy.
On the other hand, I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn’t matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.
Is there a particular saddle that stands out like this for road bike fits?
Can you or anyone explain why one would be able to tilt more anteriorly on one saddle and not another? Dash, mystica, ISM, Cobb are pretty much a bifront seat that are pretty much the same shape. The widths and lengths are millimeters different.
I rode thousands of miles fully rotated forward on a standard Selle Italia SLR, firm with no cut out. I was centered right on my perineum. It was fine.
just because you can doesn’t mean you should or that it was healthy.
I didn’t offer that example as evidence that it was either healthy or recommended, which was pretty clear from the context. I offered it as a counter to the premise that a proper saddle will magically create watts: a simplistic premise at best. Optimizing a fit is not about any one thing, and different riders are going to be sensitive to different aspects.
My contention is as follows: your most important piece of equipment in triathlon, by far, is unquestionably your saddle.
I would argue that your most important piece of equipment is your body. Everything else needs to accommodate it in its most efficient position.
I contend that this single piece of equipment, properly configured, can mean 30 watts in terms of performance, which is 10x or 15x the delta between Zipp and Yolo, or Enve and Flo, or whatever.
Not to be pedantic, but 30 watts peak power output? Average output over the course of a race distance?
But to believe my contention, you must accept the following as axiomatic: the rotation of the hips (on a time trial bike), which is a function that is critically dependent on the part under your ass, has a causal relationship to power production and aero that is unsurpassed by any other component on the bike. Who vouches for that statement? I do.
I tend to think about saddles a lot. I also tend to think along a couple of other lines, which are somewhat parallel, but maybe a slightly different perspective:
The spine must be positioned in a relatively neutral manner that corresponds with neutral muscle balance that does not limit the natural movement or otherwise place undue stressors on the skeletomuscular and neuromuscular systems.
The saddle must provide a stable platform for the pelvis in a way that not only allows for comfort at the touch point of the saddle, but support 1) above in order to minimize energy losses due to excess synergistic muscle utilization in the torso. I believe this is where the watts are “made” - not so much making gains, as minimizing losses that affect your ability to sustain power, combat fatigue, and maintain your ideal position (and “your ideal” is very individual, as would be your optimal saddle choice).
Just a couple of other points I would make quickly. I apologize if this has already been posted; I haven’t had time to read through this thread.
Saddle comfort is also a matter of positioning. I find it rare that an athlete can only be comfortable on 1 saddle once they achieve a good position. Of course, that could be a bit of a chicken or egg conundrum, but many an athlete has come in not super happy with their saddle only to find it was their position that was making said saddle uncomfortable. Fits are not necessarily about selling saddles.When swapping saddles during a fit, it’s important to insure overall position is remaining constant. I can place 3 different ISM saddles on a fit bike in the exact same spot, but it could yield 3 very different positions. If an athlete is attempting to find the best saddle, they need to be in, and stay in, a good position (see point #1).The best thing an athlete can say about a saddle when asked how it feels during a fit is, “Oh, wow, I wasn’t even thinking about the saddle.” It should disappear under them, and be a complete non-issue.Virtually every aero fit has a “moment” when both power and comfort increase dramatically (and this, I believe, is what Kileyay is referring to). Athlete: “This feels really good, the weight on my elbows is gone, but you need to turn the resistance back on.” Me: “Great! I haven’t touched the resistance.” This is not possible without the proper saddle under the athlete.
and that there is a slick way to demo a lot of saddles quickly, as i usually offer when we do a slowtwitch road show. it’s pretty simple: you need the right saddles in your fit studio; the right tooling to demo those saddles; and some experience and expertise.
it’s very hard to find local bike shops or fitters who’ll do the very simple, not very expensive, things to solve these problems. and, sorry for the semi-hijack, but i’m about ready to unveil and champion a nationwide list of fitters who will.
I have a friend who (like many/most of us) burnt out of triathlon after doing the 140.6 thing, but after buying and riding a gravel bike, he is considering coming back to road triathlon as well. He has no money, and as mentioned any money he had he just spent on a gravel bike, so it’s my job to set him up with a TT bike and get him fit on that TT bike.
There are no ST road shows nearby and I would not advise or let any bike shop “fit professional” within 50 miles of him wrench my bike or touch his fit. I can get it figured out it with fit by internet, but I need to have the right 3 or 4 or 5 saddles available for him to try/get set up on.
This is directed to you and to other actual fitters, of which I am not one: What are those 3 or 4 or 5 saddles? Note that this will be a performance fit – an “alien” long and low fit (that plebes would call “aggressive”) – because this is an athlete who will ride 2:12 to 2:15 on his way to a 4:1x in a 70.3.
and that there is a slick way to demo a lot of saddles quickly, as i usually offer when we do a slowtwitch road show. it’s pretty simple: you need the right saddles in your fit studio; the right tooling to demo those saddles; and some experience and expertise.
it’s very hard to find local bike shops or fitters who’ll do the very simple, not very expensive, things to solve these problems. and, sorry for the semi-hijack, but i’m about ready to unveil and champion a nationwide list of fitters who will.
I have a friend who (like many/most of us) burnt out of triathlon after doing the 140.6 thing, but after buying and riding a gravel bike, he is considering coming back to road triathlon as well. He has no money, and as mentioned any money he had he just spent on a gravel bike, so it’s my job to set him up with a TT bike and get him fit on that TT bike.
There are no ST road shows nearby and I would not advise or let any bike shop “fit professional” within 50 miles of him wrench my bike or touch his fit. I can get it figured out it with fit by internet, but I need to have the right 3 or 4 or 5 saddles available for him to try/get set up on.
This is directed to you and to other actual fitters, of which I am not one: What are those 3 or 4 or 5 saddles? Note that this will be a performance fit – an “alien” long and low fit (that plebes would call “aggressive”) – because this is an athlete who will ride 2:12 to 2:15 on his way to a 4:1x in a 70.3.
#saddlebattle
Fizik Mistica Large
Fizik Mistica Medium
ISM PN 3.0
ISM PS 1.0
ISM PS 2.0
On the other hand, I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn’t matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.
Is there a particular saddle that stands out like this for road bike fits?
I’d be curious to know the answer to this as well. I’ve struggled with my saddle for years. Closest I’ve found is the Cobb Randee. It works well outside, but I can’t stay on the trainer for more than an hour, which is a problem living in a cold weather climate. Most of my issues is perineum pain… I took a chance and ordered an Infinity Saddle today. It looks/sounds gimmicky, but after trying more than a dozen saddles that were all pretty similar to one another I thought I’d try something completely different. Worst case scenario I’m out the $35 restocking fee.
Anyone ever try the Infinity Saddle? I couldn’t find much on it but it seems to have a following with ultra cyclists and most of the events I do are long distance gravel races at this point.
You guys have mentioned the ISM saddles… I would toss out the Cobb JOF 55 as another alternative for tri bikes. The ISM saddles didn’t quite fit me but the Cobb works great. I haven’t tried the new ISM saddles though, so it might not be apples to apples since they changed the name/numbering scheme.
On the other hand, I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn’t matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.
Is there a particular saddle that stands out like this for road bike fits?
I’d be curious to know the answer to this as well. I’ve struggled with my saddle for years. Closest I’ve found is the Cobb Randee. It works well outside, but I can’t stay on the trainer for more than an hour, which is a problem living in a cold weather climate. Most of my issues is perineum pain… I took a chance and ordered an Infinity Saddle today. It looks/sounds gimmicky, but after trying more than a dozen saddles that were all pretty similar to one another I thought I’d try something completely different. Worst case scenario I’m out the $35 restocking fee.
Anyone ever try the Infinity Saddle? I couldn’t find much on it but it seems to have a following with ultra cyclists and most of the events I do are long distance gravel races at this point.
You guys have mentioned the ISM saddles… I would toss out the Cobb JOF 55 as another alternative for tri bikes. The ISM saddles didn’t quite fit me but the Cobb works great. I haven’t tried the new ISM saddles though, so it might not be apples to apples since they changed the name/numbering scheme.
Not sure if you’ve tried it, buy the Specialized Power Arc has been fantastic for me. I had a lot of issues on the trainer and tried many saddles and the Power Arc has been a godsend!