The real problem with teacher merit pay

The Coffee Shop
21

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

I’ve read through this and the other big thread on teachers salaries. I honestly think a lot of people on this forum need to quit with the war on teachers. Serves me right for bothering looking in the lavender room.

It’s really quite a sad commentary on a lot of you. You’d swear these teachers were all getting rich and have some humongous pension to fall back upon. They don’t…but lets not let the facts get in the way. Just bash away at them…they’re only educating your kids.

I’ll be sure to take this up with one of the posters when I see him next time in person.

Do you seriously know what kind of pensions teachers get in NY? Do you know what age most teachers who are currently retired went out at? What do you think the median teacher salary is in Clifton Park?

One of the engineers in my office (who makes 100K and is 59 years old) likes to joke about the teachers he went to college with. He thought being an engineer was a good idea. Guess what, all the teachers retired at 55 with free healthcare and very generous pensions (we are talking 60-70K) per year. He is still working and will have to go to at least 62. Our retiree healthcare is over $1000 per month and going up and even if you work until age 65, you are lucky to get a $40K pension. So when a teacher worked less years, and worked considerably less time during each to those years (8-10 weeks extra vacation) and then gets to retire earlier and with better pension and benefits than a regular professional, I think something is seriously wrong. I am not saying they deserve less than other professionals, but they are getting way more and they did way less work.

They just told us our healthcare premiums will double in the next three years (we are also currently on at least a two year pay freeze). Think this would ever happen to teachers in NY? Can you say strike?

22

http://gothamschools.org/...ar-while-costs-rose/

“In addition to raising salaries, the city has also granted a series of pension sweeteners in exchange for union concessions. In 2007, teachers with 25 years of service won the right to retire at age 55 with no penalty, a union victory that came in exchange for a touted performance-based pay deal.”

On second thought, maybe performance pay is not such a good idea;)

It gets worse

“Even the new Tier V pension plan, which increased all new teachers’ required contribution to the plan and doubled the amount of time before they can qualify to draw a pension, has not alleviated all costs. That’s because the Tier V law included a special provision for New York City’s teachers that no other plan received, allowing them to retire with a full pension at age 55 if they’ve taught for 27 years. Teachers in the rest of the state must wait until age 57 to retire with a full pension.”

23

in some ways I agree with you…and others. Problem is, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t expect teachers to get a masters degree and then not pay accordingly.On the flip side, if you don’t require some sort of degree, then you are saying that teaching isn’t a worthy profession for high caliber people. I think they have a very important job and a much harder job than most people realize… and they should be well paid for it (and they are paid well enough IF they stay in their career long enough). The teachers I’ve met with my kids have ranged from very young, to middle aged, to bordering on retirement. All of them have been good. (granted it’s a small sample size). I also don’t remember many bad teachers as a kid. In fact, I mostly remember teachers that were outstanding (because they made me interested in something I didn’t care about). I have relatives and friends who are teachers. they are all smart people and work a lot more than you and others give them credit for…it goes far beyond the normal classroom hours.

One area we differ in is whether it should be a career or not. I’m ok with it being a career since that means you get a higher caliber person (ie somebody willing to get a masters degree). If the standards go down, you will get lower caliber people teaching our kids…which is not a good thing. There are deadbeats in any profession…and I’m for getting rid of them especially in the teaching profession. On the other hand (and call me a socialist for this if you want)…I just don’t don’t think a good 50 year old teacher should have to worry about getting the axe so the school can hire somebody fresh out of college to save money (i feel the same way about everbody who does their job well…business in general is shitty when it comes to this). a simple cap on teachers salaries should suffice. but…there obviously needs to be a way to get rid of the deadbeats (which are probably in the minority…simply not giving them raises or not granting tenure should help them to move along).

as an aside. One of my sister-in-laws teaches for a waldorf school. the teachers start with a class in kindergarten and move up with them. So…they are never teaching the same thing (well…until they start over with a new kindergarten class). I kind of like that idea…but admit there might be faults with it as well. People like you would then have to give them more of a pass on their 10 week summer break, since (and I know this as a fact) they can’t really take much of a break as they are preparing for a completely different curriculum (a curriculum that is in some ways much harder than public schools). food for thought.

24

Honestly, teaching is probably not that different than corporate America. I can’t speak for other countries. :wink: I’m sure you have some great teachers who have been great almost from the beginning and they are always a little better than the other teachers at educating. Thats corporate America too.

there are no merit pay increases these days in many large companies. I’m not sure there really ever was. I’ve always been a highly rated (top10%) over every appraisal I’ve ever had. Clients love me. But the difference between average and top performer is very little in pay increases. I probably got a few promotions earlier, than others, but eventually all catch up and my extra 400 hours of OT per year makes the company about $50,000, but i get nothing for it vs the other employes that work 8-5. Yes my high rating might garner a few more dollars per month that would maybe enough to supersize my lunch occasionally. The last 4 years all have gotten 0% increases even though the company makes more money than ever. I remind myself I still have a job when 3/4 of our IT jobs have moved to India. In real dollars I was making more in 1997.

I think this is a pretty common story, otherwise there would not be a Dilbert cartoon strip :slight_smile:

25

so are you saying engineers are worth more money than teachers…how convenient for you :wink:

You’ll get no arguement from me that tier 1 and 2 teachers got an amazing deal. pay in 10 years to a pension and yet receive a pension based on your top 3 years avg earning for the rest of your life seems pretty ludicrous now. I’d be curious what the average payout was for previous generations. I could be completely wrong…i’m just guessing a lot of people died before they received anywhere close to what they paid in.

things are changing though…state workers will now always have to pay into the retirement system (which is good). I believe its 3% of your salary per year until you retire. Also, I’m pretty sure the NYS pension plan is 2%/year based on your 3 highest avg years salary.

according to what I read, the average pension for educators in NYS retiring in 2010 was $52,270…but I believe that’s including very high (6 figure) pensions for high level administrators. so while I’m sure there were some teachers pulling in 70k/year with their pension, i doesn’t seem to be the norm. However, in theory, you should make more in the private sector jobs on a year to year basis than public…so good benefits are how you’d draw in decent talent to the public sector. again…you can’t have it both ways.

So when a teacher worked less years, and worked considerably less time during each to those years (8-10 weeks extra vacation) and then gets to retire earlier and with better pension and benefits than a regular professional, I think something is seriously wrong. I am not saying they deserve less than other professionals, but they are getting way more and they did way less work.

seriously matt…i think you’re just disparaging teachers and not giving them much credit. the ones i know put in a lot more time than the school schedule would indicate.
They just told us our healthcare premiums will double in the next three years (we are also currently on at least a two year pay freeze). Think this would ever happen to teachers in NY? Can you say strike?

ironically I have not had a raise in 3 years as an M/C for the state (I’m not in a union). I probably won’t get one for at least another 2 years. oh…and the new contract that the unions are coming to terms with have at least a 3 year freeze (with a whopping 1% increase the next year) and massive increases to their/our healthcare. I’ve seen the proposal…the co-pays would make me seriously question whether or not I want to go to the doctor’s office. Having said that, i wouldn’t blame them for striking if they were offered really shitty benefits.

oh…and as for the average teachers salary in clifton park…i’m good with that. when/if you have kids, you’ll feel the same way. Especially since my sister in law lives in schenectady and pulled her daughter out of kindergarten there for a number of reasons.

lastly, I have been a state employee for 11 years. I was in their 403b (essentially a 401k plan) for 8 years and now the pension plan. I honestly don’t have that much hope that I’ll actually be able to retire. I’m sure we’ll get fucked out of our money…and my 403b certainly won’t be enough.

life sucks…buy a helmet. now stop with your crusade against the public workers of the world :wink: we’re all getting fucked…it’s just hitting state workers later than the rest of you. see the recent stats on poverty in america.

26

the company my wife works for has strict guidelines for merit increases. I think 3-4% is the max. when you figure out the difference between the average increase and the highest…well, there simply isn’t that much incentive to bust your ass other than to save your job.

the american dream is mostly dead.

27

yoda has entered the building…he was in the other rather long thread. maybe a teacher ‘bad touched’ him, which would explain his disdain for them :wink:

28

Why would anybody intelligent go to college for 6 years for a $35,000 a year job if there was no guarantee of longevity? It wouldn’t be worth getting a masters degree if you ended up out of the teaching profession (to dump salary for a younger person) before you started making decent money.

I think you answered it, an intelligent person would not do this. I don’t think the most intelligent people are going into teaching.

There is no logical reason to need a masters degree to be a teacher. This is something ginned up by the unions to make teachers seem like they are highly educated and deserve higher pay. It is also a way to prevent experienced professionals in other areas from teaching for a couple of years (barrier to entry).

Teaching should not be a career. It should be something to do for 3-5 years and then you should go back to doing something real. It would be a great benefit, especially to high school students if they had experienced professionals teaching some of their classes.

Give me a break, what professional experience would qualify one to teach Social Studies to high school kids or the times tables to second graders. Also the barrier to entry line is a bunch of crap, say I feel like starting my own engineering firm, but I can’t because I can’t sign off on blueprints because I need a state license to get my stamp. Talk about a barrier to entry drummed up by the Engineers lobby. A Masters Degree isn’t a barrier, it is a requirement just like any other profession.

29

there are no merit pay increases these days in many large companies. I’m not sure there really ever was. I’ve always been a highly rated (top10%) over every appraisal I’ve ever had. Clients love me. But the difference between average and top performer is very little in pay increases. I probably got a few promotions earlier, than others, but eventually all catch up and my extra 400 hours of OT per year makes the company about $50,000, but i get nothing for it vs the other employes that work 8-5. Yes my high rating might garner a few more dollars per month that would maybe enough to supersize my lunch occasionally. The last 4 years all have gotten 0% increases even though the company makes more money than ever. I remind myself I still have a job when 3/4 of our IT jobs have moved to India. In real dollars I was making more in 1997.

That’s exactly what you would expect statistically. 70% of any group will be pretty close to each other in the average range.

The difference is the expectation. Scenario 1 is “you have to perform to get paid,” while scenario 2 is, “do whatever you want, you get paid the same.” When you can do whatever you want, everyone slacks up a bit (or a lot). When you make it competitive, everyone steps up their game. The end result for pay is about the same…and perhaps that’s why teachers don’t want it. 85% of them would do no better under a merit pay system.