I think it should be a local decsion; I’m not in favor one country, one rule.
But it doesn’t really matter. That is, until someone’s parent tries to make a huge ass issue out of it and the other kids make fun of him because of his parents are weirdos.
Seems kind of silly considering that the US allows dual citizenship
Well the renouncement clause is silly because it’s inconsistent with US law, but what about the rest of it?
Seems kind of silly considering that the US allows dual citizenship
Well the renouncement clause is silly because it’s inconsistent with US law, but what about the rest of it?
I am not a fan of loyalty oaths, so I don’t have any need to compel immigrants to recite one. I suppose if ever one would be called for, it would be by those elected to serve the government.
For everyone who says “No, no, and no” to the Pledge, what about the National Anthem? It’s not burdened by religion (the God lyrics aren’t normally sung), but we are almost forced to participate and its similar in purpose and tone to the Pledge, just with a lot more melodrama. Our expected behavior during the playing of the Anthem is US law, and social pressure is fairly coercive to those who don’t comply, e.g. if you’re at a NASCAR race and you turn your back to the flag or sing in Russian during the Anthem, you’d better be ready to fight.
It’s so coercive that I feel compelled, while posting this, to point out that I have no problem with the Anthem, and fully comply with the government-sanctioned behavior. Occassionally I tear up. Sometimes when men don’t remove their caps or don’t stop talking I give them icy, disapproving stares. Am I patriotic, or a mindless subservient drone?
Also, to everyone who says “No, no, and no,” should we require new U.S. citizens, during the naturalization ceremony, to say the Oath of Allegiance?
People may feel as if they are coerced to participate, due to peer pressure, but peer pressure is not state action. Nor is the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event, under most circumstances.
An oath of allegiance, as part of the naturalization process, is a far cry from the pledge of allegiance at school, public meetings, or any other event. I see no problem with requiring those that wish to become citizens, as part of the naturalization process, to promise some form of allegiance to the counrty that they are joining. Again, this is optional. If they don’t want to make that promise, they don’t have to. They can remain resident aliens.
Seems kind of silly considering that the US allows dual citizenship
Well the renouncement clause is silly because it’s inconsistent with US law, but what about the rest of it?
I am not a fan of loyalty oaths, so I don’t have any need to compel immigrants to recite one. I suppose if ever one would be called for, it would be by those elected to serve the government.
It’s a largely symbolic promise that is made once, as part of the naturalization process. In a way, it’s a summation of the process itself. The whole idea of becomming a US Citizen implies loyalty.
Immigrants are not compelled to recite it – only if they also wish to become US Citizens.
It’s a largely symbolic promise that is made once, as part of the naturalization process. In a way, it’s a summation of the process itself. The whole idea of becomming a US Citizen implies loyalty.
Immigrants are not compelled to recite it – only if they also wish to become US Citizens.
The fact that it is largely symbolic is what I find silly. A loyalty oath is supposed to be serious business – like a life-n-death kinda thing. Instead we make it just a bunch of irrelevant words that you have to say to complete some process. Most people treat it about as serious as they do their wedding vows.
No. How many billions of dollars would it cost to take the time to do it and/or enforce it. Waste of time.
*** anathema to the founding ideal of freedom and liberty.***
You have just described compulsory publicly funded education.
There are certain services that are essential to the welfare of the citizenry, that can and should be provided by the collective to ensure said services for all. Defense, public safety, and public education are high on that list. I would not equate the compulsory recitation of an allegiance pledge with the means of provision for such services.
The fact that it is largely symbolic is what I find silly. A loyalty oath is supposed to be serious business – like a life-n-death kinda thing.
All oaths are symbolic. The seriousness is only in the intent of the oath-taker. A wedding oath can be serious business or it can be the result of too much blow in Vegas.
"1) Do you think we should force public school children to say this every day, “under God” and all? " No.
Do you think we should force them to say some sort of pledge, even if it was sans religious reference? No.
Hypothetically, if we never had a pledge, would you think we should start one (God or no God) and force kids to recite it every day? No.
Pledges of any kind can suck it. We are a nation of show only. We masturbate to pledges and anthems because they are empty nothings that make us feel good about our country so we don’t have to do the hard work and improve our country.
Tibbs do you have a new job as the spokesman for the American public.
Change the we’s to I’s or some other variation that refers to yourself and/or those that think like you and you may have a point.
Pledges and anthems are what the individuals make of them. To some they mean nothing and others would and do die to fulfill them.
Maybe if more people thought like that we wouldn’t be in the situation we are.
It seems maybe you made the case for continuing to have our children recite the pledge if they wish and parents and teachers get off their ass and help the kids understand the meaning behind the words.
Well played Sir. That was very tricky
Hey, you’ve got to answer the questions if you want to participate.
If you are suggesting that we change things and FORCE people to do it then no I wouldn’t agree.
Thankfully no one is being forced and can opt to not participate as I did when we had in school prayer.
Now back to my LOA
I am a big picture guy. I am talking about what I observe as one nation. Individuals do great things and some groups honestly try but look at the US as one living organism and the sloth, stupidity and self contentedness shine like a glowing candle.
"Pledges and anthems are what the individuals make of them. To some they mean nothing and others would and do die to fulfill them. "
Pledges and anthems are meaningless to me but I served with the full understanding I might die and that death would be for the defense of this nation not words in pledges or anthems. We use pledge and anthems out of laziness. A person could be a total waste and contribute nothing but if that person says the pledge, has an American flag on the back window of their truck and owns the single Proud To Be An American then in this modern day America they are a great patriot and Sean Hannity would tell them so.
" Maybe if more people thought like that we wouldn’t be in the situation we are. "
Maybe if more people looked outside of themselves we would be in a situation and songs and pledges would not be needed.
"It seems maybe you made the case for continuing to have our children recite the pledge if they wish and parents and teachers get off their ass and help the kids understand the meaning behind the words. "
Empty words thought because both the pledge and the anthem don’t say much. Actions only matter. Words are meaningless.
Completely agree.
No, no, no.
I could care less if people dont recite something they dont believe in or dont understand. My two oaths meant something to me and that is why I continue to serve, most I am with feel the same way. There is nothing more annoying to me than false or convenient patriotism, that is all a lot of sayings/stickers/oaths are nowadays.
It’s been a while since I’ve stirred up some crap in here. ; ^ P
Okay, fire the flames away.
Your atheism doesn’t belong in my government!! Especially when that gov’t is based on “inalienable rights from a Creator”. Rights are morals. Our laws are our morals expanded in written form. Yes, it’s tradition but there’s a very valid reason behind all this. Rights from Man are alienable (separable) from the individual. Rights from a Creator, whether you believe in that Creator or not, are eternal and immutable. Saying the pledge, however, won’t ensure that there is a free, tolerant, open, liberal America in the future, though, and we must all study the knowledge that our founders had when they developed our laws. Remember, they came from a land of tyrants where laws came from the King first and not God first.
In the final analysis, morality from man leads to lawlessness/decadence or the other extreme, tyrants/slavery to the State. Man’s morality shifts according to whim. There has to be an anchor for morals. Atheists say man in general is just a highly evolved critter but this blocks man’s sense of morality, sense of eternity (that there are consequences), and that each person has individual value. God otoh, says man is a moral being made to strive for good, is eternal, and has immense value! Without God, there is no definition of goodness and therefore no morality.
In short, the Christian tradition DOES belong in gov’t. The Christian Bible is the basis for our rights, whether you like it or not in this day and age.
Without answering your three questions directly, I have a thought based on my experience as a student in a public school and as a teacher for 14 years in a public school.
As a student in the 60’s and early 70’s, we would say “The Pledge” once per week on Monday morning during the PA announcements. I don’t think public school students were any more (or less) patriotic 40 years ago than the students that I deal with today. However, for one day of the week when I was a student, we were reasonably respectful about standing, putting our hand over our heart, and saying the words to “The Pledge”.
In the public school where I teach today, we start every day with “The Pledge”. I’m in a pretty good school with good kids. I’ve never had a student refuse to stand during “The Pledge”, but quite of few of them don’t bother to place their hand over their heart, and very few of them say anything at all, much less the Pledge of Allegiance (with or without the “under God” words).
Anything (The Lord’s Prayer, The Pledge of Allegiance, the lyrics to Eminem’s “Lose Yourself”) gets old and loses its meaning with too much repetition.
Your atheism doesn’t belong in my government!! Especially wh…
Oh blah blah blah…I really can’t read anymore reverse logic posts from you. Atheism in government? What the hell are you talking about?
I didn’t read the rest.
Wow, you’re very open to other viewpoints. Close-minded much?
Actually I’m quite open to other view points. Just not yours.