The pardons that shouldn't

US Navy seal CPO Gallagher (murder yet convicted), Blackwater security contractor Slatten (murder), Army Green Beret Maj.Golsteyn (murder) and a group of USMC snipers (for pissing on dead taliban fighters). NYT reported that president is considering pardons. Wapo has editorialized:

“Mr Trump would undermine the military by pardoning those who violated laws of war…
Pardons in these cases would undermine discipline in the ranks, impede cooperation with citizens and fighters of other nations, and insult millions of service members who have behaved honorably…show weakness, corroding the professionalism and humanity of the armed forces.”

Solid arguments against pardon by editorial board, yet I am torn.

Compelling historical context is provided in a piece by Charles Lane in today’s post, “Trump’s My Lai moment”. sorry for not providing links, maybe someone can help.

Wapo has editorialized:

“Mr Trump would undermine the military by pardoning those who violated laws of war…
Pardons in these cases would undermine discipline in the ranks, impede cooperation with citizens and fighters of other nations, and insult millions of service members who have behaved honorably…show weakness, corroding the professionalism and humanity of the armed forces.”

Nah, MAGA.

Wapo has editorialized:

“Mr Trump would undermine the military by pardoning those who violated laws of war…
Pardons in these cases would undermine discipline in the ranks, impede cooperation with citizens and fighters of other nations, and insult millions of service members who have behaved honorably…show weakness, corroding the professionalism and humanity of the armed forces.”

Nah, MAGA.

If that wasn’t intended to be in pink font, can to please elaborate?

Eddie Gallagher is a POS deserving of war crimes court date and likely a noose. Its a poor reflection on the US Military that he ‘got away’ with a single charge of murder on a POW. It would be a terrible reflection on the USA if he was pardoned. Even many of his Navy SEALs think he is a POS. https://www.navytimes.com/...out-eddie-gallagher/

With the lack of accountability for the evil acts, the narrative that the US is the ‘good guy’ in global affairs is harder and harder to spin throughout most of the world.

Well he just pardoned his good buddy and convicted fraudster Conrad Black so why not some murderers?

There’s already been one recent military pardon: Michael Behenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behenna

But I have to wonder why the media haven’t seized on Trump’s pardon of his biographer, Conrad Black. Maybe because it’s just another example of Trump’s shallow morals and massive ego.

Eddie Gallagher is a POS deserving of war crimes court date and likely a noose. Its a poor reflection on the US Military that he ‘got away’ with a single charge of murder on a POW. It would be a terrible reflection on the USA if he was pardoned. Even many of his Navy SEALs think he is a POS. https://www.navytimes.com/...out-eddie-gallagher/

With the lack of accountability for the evil acts, the narrative that the US is the ‘good guy’ in global affairs is harder and harder to spin throughout most of the world.

Did you actually read the entire article that you linked? Because while he may well be a POS and should be behind bars, there is not a whole lot of evidence against him, other than mostly second and third hand testimony. There is (or was) apparently some question whether or not he killed anybody. Not to mention the fact that there is evidence that some of those witnesses wanted to get together to “make sure their story jibed” before testifying to the NCIS.

This is not to say he should be pardoned; I think the trial should continue and let justice take its course. But it seems to me you are jumping to some conclusions that the facts may not support.

His pardons appear unprecedented in two distinct ways: the overt political-personal focus, and the absence of a formal DOJ review process.

In other words, he just pardons whomever he wants to, for his own personal reasons. That’s not abuse of power at all, I guess. The ball washers here are locked into their circular logic that as long as it’s legal, there’s nothing to see here, and because he’s POTUS, nothing is illegal, so it’s his right, and therefore totally fine…

President Trump’s pardons were self-serving before, and they became even more so Wednesday night, after he pardoned two prominent conservatives who had already completed their sentences.

Trump pardoned billionaire Conrad Black, who a year ago published a book called “Donald J. Trump: A president like no other.” The book is more hagiography than biography. It defends Trump against charges that he is a racist, stating flatly that he is not. It hails his “very successful” foreign policy ventures. It credits his “unquenchable energy,” “sheer entertainment talent” and “raw toughness.” It misleadingly hails his 2016 election win by saying he won “more votes than any previous Republican candidate for president,” without noting that this was mostly a function of population growth and that Trump lost the popular vote. He called Trump’s win a “stunning rebuff” of the media.

The second pardon went to Patrick J. Nolan, the former Republican leader of the California state assembly. This one is less obviously self-serving, but it is. Nolan has been a prominent conservative voice for criminal justice reform since finishing his sentence and has served in prison ministry. But he, like Black, is close to the Trump family. Appearing at a White House ceremony celebrating the passage of criminal justice reform legislation, Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner called Nolan “my friend,” and Nolan called Kushner “just a superstar. I’m impressed with him so much.” Last year, Nolan criticized special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s investigation. He said it was symptomatic of how law enforcement personnel “decide who they’re going to prosecute and then hunt for a crime."

That these pardons went to two Trump allies who said things he likes, and whose pardons could send signals to other Trump allies, doesn’t seem like a coincidence. Trump has now pardoned 10 people in his two-plus years in office. Of the nine living ones, eight are either conservatives or further Trump’s political narrative in some way.

To recap:
Dinesh D’Souza is a close analog to Black, publishing books attacking Democrats including Hillary Clinton and former president Barack Obama.

Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio is an immigration hard-liner who supported Trump in 2016.

The two Hammond brothers’ case launched a standoff with the federal government that briefly became a cause celebre among some conservatives. As with D’Souza and Arpaio, the pardons could be understood as reaching out to an extreme group that could support Trump down the road.

Kristian Saucier was the Navy sailor who argued that his sentence was too harsh by citing Hillary Clinton — a comparison Trump often repeated on the campaign trail.

Lewis “Scooter” Libby was a White House official in the Bush administration whose case bore some striking similarities to Trump’s own legal issues — and whose pardon was pushed for by lawyers Trump briefly hired.
The other two pardons went to the late boxer Jack Johnson and, earlier this month, Michael Behenna, a former Army first lieutenant convicted of murder while serving in Iraq. Trump has also commuted the sentence of two others, including Alice Marie Johnson, whose clemency was pushed for by Kim Kardashian, who is married to Trump ally Kanye West.

The point isn’t that presidents don’t pardon their allies; they have. Bill Clinton’s pardon of Marc Rich, who had given large sums to both the Democratic Party and the Clintons, was a massive controversy.

But they often do it sparingly, late in their terms (the Rich pardon came on Clinton’s last day in office), and they mix it in with many other pardons that don’t so clearly and obviously benefit themselves. The scale and audacity with Trump is on another level completely. Trump seems to have very little regard for the perception this creates. Perhaps that’s because he likes the signal it sends to his allies that they too could one day benefit from his broad executive power — even if in ways far shy of a something as big as a pardon. Trump’s dangling of pardons for some of his top aides convicted of crimes drives that home.

The Black pardon, in particular, really tests the limits of what is appropriate. But as with many other norms, Trump is happy to bulldoze it.

Man,

Your TDS is getting stronger by the day.

Sad.

There’s already been one recent military pardon: Michael Behenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behenna

But I have to wonder why the media haven’t seized on Trump’s pardon of his biographer, Conrad Black. Maybe because it’s just another example of Trump’s shallow morals and massive ego.

The Post did mention the Behenna pardon as well. I should have listed him. Trump offers up so much to seize upon and find fault with that Mr Black just didn’t make the grade I guess.

Why?

He has a big fan base of voters who have adopted the personas or have sick fascinations with the whole “Punisher” thing and glorification of violence subset of society.

These same people seem to have weird sick personal fascinations with the very real, very difficult profession of snipers.

It’s a fascination with the personification of reaching out and punishing a group of people they perceive to have wronged America or some how disenfranchised the “persecuted white male Christian” through the lens of a sniper scope.

Nothing wrong at all with respecting and praying for our soldiers. Entirely different to hold sick personal fantasies and fan club like mentalities about killing people.

No joke…I’ve seen bumper stickers locally supporting that marine guy he wants to pardon. It’s out there.

There’s already been one recent military pardon: Michael Behenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behenna

But I have to wonder why the media haven’t seized on Trump’s pardon of his biographer, Conrad Black. Maybe because it’s just another example of Trump’s shallow morals and massive ego.

The Post did mention the Behenna pardon as well. I should have listed him. Trump offers up so much to seize upon and find fault with that Mr Black just didn’t make the grade I guess.

Yeah, sorry - I posted before I read the Post article and saw it mentioned Behenna.

Eddie Gallagher is a POS deserving of war crimes court date and likely a noose. Its a poor reflection on the US Military that he ‘got away’ with a single charge of murder on a POW. It would be a terrible reflection on the USA if he was pardoned. Even many of his Navy SEALs think he is a POS. https://www.navytimes.com/...out-eddie-gallagher/

With the lack of accountability for the evil acts, the narrative that the US is the ‘good guy’ in global affairs is harder and harder to spin throughout most of the world.

Did you actually read the entire article that you linked? Because while he may well be a POS and should be behind bars, there is not a whole lot of evidence against him, other than mostly second and third hand testimony. There is (or was) apparently some question whether or not he killed anybody. Not to mention the fact that there is evidence that some of those witnesses wanted to get together to “make sure their story jibed” before testifying to the NCIS.

This is not to say he should be pardoned; I think the trial should continue and let justice take its course. But it seems to me you are jumping to some conclusions that the facts may not support.

Navy prosecutors argue that Gallagher’s accusers showed “the courage and integrity to come forward and report”. So if a pardon pre-conviction is offered and taken, then the they sayers ought be believed.

Pardons - the never-ending political argument. It’s a strange power in a country of laws. One can be charged, tried and convicted through our legal system then walk away because the President made the decision - for whatever reason. I would prefer we either do away with Presidential pardons or allow the President to nominate individuals to a body who make the final determination based on some set of criteria. Could even be SCOTUS who have to approve.

I’d prefer they just go away. Trump won’t be the last POTUS to take great liberties with this power.

Eddie Gallagher is a POS deserving of war crimes court date and likely a noose. Its a poor reflection on the US Military that he ‘got away’ with a single charge of murder on a POW. It would be a terrible reflection on the USA if he was pardoned. Even many of his Navy SEALs think he is a POS. https://www.navytimes.com/...out-eddie-gallagher/

With the lack of accountability for the evil acts, the narrative that the US is the ‘good guy’ in global affairs is harder and harder to spin throughout most of the world.

This perception/reality that we are losing the moral high ground of ethical and humanitarian standards is completely lost on the amoral short sighted commander in chief.

Pardons - the never-ending political argument. It’s a strange power in a country of laws. One can be charged, tried and convicted through our legal system then walk away because the President made the decision - for whatever reason. I would prefer we either do away with Presidential pardons or allow the President to nominate individuals to a body who make the final determination based on some set of criteria. Could even be SCOTUS who have to approve.

I’d prefer they just go away. Trump won’t be the last POTUS to take great liberties with this power.

I’d be willing to bet the farm that he will go down in history as the most controversial pardoner.

Pardons - the never-ending political argument. It’s a strange power in a country of laws. One can be charged, tried and convicted through our legal system then walk away because the President made the decision - for whatever reason. I would prefer we either do away with Presidential pardons or allow the President to nominate individuals to a body who make the final determination based on some set of criteria. Could even be SCOTUS who have to approve.

I’d prefer they just go away. Trump won’t be the last POTUS to take great liberties with this power.

I’d be willing to bet the farm that he will go down in history as the most controversial pardoner.

As I referenced earlier, it’s not just the people, it’s the process, or lack thereof.

Trump’s approach to clemency has been unorthodox to say the least. According to the Washington Post, most of the president’s clemency decisions “are impulsive” and based on “seeing something on TV, reading something in a newspaper, hearing from a friend or someone lobbying him personally.” In addition, Trump’s clemency orders are unusually early in his presidency. By contrast, former Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama granted no requests for clemency within their first two years in office.

Trump’s approach is also unique in another way: His indifference to the Office of the Pardon Attorney.
Established in 1894, the Office of the Pardon Attorney is responsible for assisting the president with exercising his constitutional clemency power. Under current regulations, those seeking clemency must file formal petitions to the pardon attorney. Individuals requesting a pardon must usually wait five years after their release before filing. Others wishing to commute a sentence must first try all “other forms of judicial or administrative relief.”

Once a petition is received, the Department of Justice conducts an investigation. After it is concluded, the pardon attorney reviews all the relevant materials and evaluates the petition against a host of factors. From there, the he or she submits a recommendation to the attorney general who, in turn, reviews the materials and makes a final recommendation to the president.

At least that’s the way it normally works.

In the case of ** Arpaio*, ** Libby,** and ** D’Souza**, however, all three were pardoned without input from the pardon attorney.* For boxer Jack Johnson (originally convicted for traveling across state lines with a white woman for “immoral purposes”), who Trump granted a posthumous pardon in May, his petition was previously denied by the Harding administration. For Navy sailor Kristian Saucier (convicted for taking photos inside a nuclear submarine without authorization), his request was originally denied only to be reprocessed months later without explanation. Lastly, for Sholom Rubashkin (convicted of bank fraud and money laundering), the White House stated that Trump’s decision to commute his sentence was based on, not a recommendation from the pardon attorney, but from “Members of Congress and a broad cross-section of the legal community.”

Of course Trump is well within his right to offer federal clemency this way. Indeed, the regulations concerning the pardon attorney process are only advisory. However,* ignoring the process offers at least two drawbacks. First, as law professor Steve Vladeck ** notes**, through the pardon attorney, “the executive branch has created its own process for pardons in an effort to mitigate the prospect – or, at least, the specter – of abuse.” Without it, future clemency orders may be viewed, fairly or unfairly, as partisan or self-serving.*

Second, Trump’s current method of granting clemency to those with either political or celebrity backing is antithetical to the egalitarian purpose of the clemency power. It further sends the wrong and discouraging message that, for clemency, only the famous or politically connected need apply.

Eddie Gallagher is a POS deserving of war crimes court date and likely a noose. Its a poor reflection on the US Military that he ‘got away’ with a single charge of murder on a POW. It would be a terrible reflection on the USA if he was pardoned. Even many of his Navy SEALs think he is a POS. https://www.navytimes.com/...out-eddie-gallagher/

With the lack of accountability for the evil acts, the narrative that the US is the ‘good guy’ in global affairs is harder and harder to spin throughout most of the world.

Did you actually read the entire article that you linked? Because while he may well be a POS and should be behind bars, there is not a whole lot of evidence against him, other than mostly second and third hand testimony. There is (or was) apparently some question whether or not he killed anybody. Not to mention the fact that there is evidence that some of those witnesses wanted to get together to “make sure their story jibed” before testifying to the NCIS.

This is not to say he should be pardoned; I think the trial should continue and let justice take its course. But it seems to me you are jumping to some conclusions that the facts may not support.

Navy prosecutors argue that Gallagher’s accusers showed “the courage and integrity to come forward and report”. So if a pardon pre-conviction is offered and taken, then the they sayers ought be believed.

I don’t understand how that logically follows. If Gallagher gets pardoned, then that means the accusers should then be believed? How does a pardon have anything to do with their veracity?

Again, for the record, I’m not for a pardon here. I think a courts martial should determine the veracity of his accusers. But your statement doesn’t make any sense to me.

I must be missing something here specific to the presumed bias or incompetence of the Navy’s system of discovery and justice. Why is this case being pushed for pardon pre-trial, rather than post?

Earlier this year, Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.) called on Trump to dismiss Gallagher’s case.

“Chief Gallagher stands accused of murder in the killing of a verified ISIS combatant in a warzone based on inconsistent testimony and without any physical evidence,” Hunter said in a January statement.

“It is important to remember that this ISIS combatant was engaged in an extensive firefight with Chief Gallagher’s team and was already significantly injured when captured. No credible evidence has been provided that this ISIS fighter was murdered as opposed to dying from his terrorist actions.”

there is not a whole lot of evidence against him, other than** mostly second and third hand testimony**. There is (or was) apparently some question whether or not he killed anybody.

I disagree with that based on what I’ve read. There are SEALs who have apparently testified to prosecutors on what they themselves saw Gallagher do and say. That’s first-hand testimony.

There are also SEALs who reported being directly threatened by Gallagher due to their cooperation in the case. That’s also direct testimony.

The “process crimes” here are serious. You should not be able to threaten your fellow service members with death, and walk away scot-free. (if those threats are validated through a proper court martial).