I looked at sam longs strava. His run PR is 70-71. KB has shown he can do sub 67 in 2 races within a week. So even slowing down for 1-2 min, the run speed is not there. He ran 71 here also
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And he very would clearly have broken that PR here if he didnāt fade HARD those last 3 miles. His legs were lead. Casper passed him and Sam just plodded a long with no response at all. With the finish line in sight. He blew up big time. And still matched his previous runs. So the PR potential was there if not for something earlier in the race.
I would ask the more important question though- does he want a coach. That is probaly as important in the relationship than needing a coach cus until he gets to that point, itāll never work. He finally saw the need to get professional swim coaching and I think itās starting to slowly pay off. Of course that setup/relationship is I believe all remote except for what a week working with Long last summer. So heās only going to be able to do so much within those constraints. Heās probaly at best getting a few swim videos once or twice a week Iād imagine?
I might be jaded on this from believing too much in the Oceanside race where Lionel was allegedly swimming so hard and so well that he broke a rib from being such a beast in the pool. But it seems more likely that thereās something about Oceanside (flat water, cold, big group) that explains the results more than the swim improvement. My money is that in Texas, that perceived swim improvement people think is there in Lionel or Sam will disappear.
Maybe they all (Ari, Sam, Lionel) are just doing it wrong consistently, but there seems to be a plateau for these guys? Who else is getting there? Donāt point to Braden Currie who leveled up early in his career or Cam Wurf. These guys grew up on islands. Swimming was much more ingrained in them from a young age to unlock.
Itās imo if your not a front pack swimmer, and majority of your swims are solo swims, I think you are doing something wrong. Long, and LS have traditionally for many years done more swims solo than they ever did with the local ABās training from the intel Iāve been told from people who live there and train in that area. Ari did what that Aussie 3 month training block and then what, went back to Seattle to do solo swimming? I would start with that assessment. Now I 100% think your ālimitedā in your top end ability (Iāāve never once said any of these guys should ever realistically make front pack), and thus āplateauā likely lower than the pure fishes, Iāll acknowledge that. But if your not swimmming consistenly with a coach on deck with eyes on you, why not if this is your profession and winning WC races is your goal.
Ariās likely best setup was when he was with James Petersenās DTE what some 5 years or so ago, but he got woooād by LS to be a paid training partner for LS; yet all it did was basically break him and that didntā even last what 6 months? So then he was sorta in solo training moving to different locations doing remote coaching and still having remote coaching where heās slowly starting to find some success under Kelly.
Ariās been training with a squad with fast collegiate or ex-collegiate guys who are faster than him, multiple days a week, and then he stays and keeps swimming more distance for about an hour after each session. At least thatās what he said on a recent podcast, and he said he was in the pool 6-7x/wk and that he felt he could go hard every session now and not overfatigue himself in S-B-R.
I think heās improving, but heās still not a FOP pro by any stretch. Pro coaching is helpful, but I doubt itās a magic bullet for those who donāt have the natural gift. Itās like asking a non-FOP pro triathlon runner to try and match Ariās run splits, when Ari before triathlon was already a top-tier type pure runner. Itāll be next to impossible for that person, no matter what their coaching is, if their intrinsic potential just isnāt as high.
At the pro level today, I think your genetic potential is probably the dominant factor, as now every pro racing in the front pack does lots of high quality S-B-R, nobodyās leaving much time anywhere on the table, because they know KB and the others in front certainly arenāt going to.
I donāt understand why people think they can swim that much faster than they are.
I, and perhaps THOUSANDS of age groupers are exactly that.
Itās not that chopping time in the swim will take years. Itās that itās literally impossible for us on the lower-talent side of swimming. Iāve tried nearly everything within reason - 20k/wk, swimming with masters, video feedback, all short intervals, all slow intervals, sure, they each can improve me a little bit, but even combined with DOUBLE my normal swim volume Iām chopping off like 2-3sec/100 for tons and tons of work. Itās just my ceiling. I guarantee there is no coach that can magically video and analyze me, and give me some magic technique fix that will chop off 5sec/100. No freaking way.
Itās far more realistic for me to say I can gain 7-10 mins on the bike or even the run (which sounds almost impossible already) than to say I can go 3-4 mins faster in a HIM swim, or 7-8mins faster in an IM swim. At least in the bike and run, if I train harder/more, small gains still happen. In swimming, the gains for me now are miniscule, and stay really small even with large increases in training.
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Itās more than helpful, itās almost a requirement for the maajority of pro triathletes these days. Iād guess the super minority of the world class donātā train in some type of squad coached swim* environment. Likely even less so if your not a FOP swimmer. Doesnāt mean your going to reach FOP, but as I stated with Long and his recent improvements. I bet heās more effiicient than ever before, which makes you fresher for the rest of the race (and heās only basically doing āonlineā swim coaching help).
I can tell you when I looked at my mid distance and long course race results I never came away from them thinking āIf only I swam more Iād get under xā. The reality was my volume for the bike and run were just enough for survival. But it wouldnāt matter if I doubled my swim volume, I swim like a brick. The swim is where the swim is for these guys, they might be able to shave 20 seconds, but how much work is it going to take?
Not sure about you, but I can say for sure now with 15+ yrs of tri experience, that Iāve tried my best and tried quite hard to improve my swimming as much as possible. Iāve always been a lower-talent swimmer, when I came to tri it was my worst by farrr, which wasnāt a surprise, but only now after those 15 yrs do I realize that I really am lower-talent than even the average AGer, who will improve faster with less than I do, and explains why I was near DFL for most of my 1st year of tri despite also trying quite hard. Iām now able to swim into the top 15-20% of fields, but if you look at my race results, pretty much everyone in front of me is beating me by 4-6 mins in a HIM swim, whereas Iām equal or better to them on bike-run. So a Lionel or SL type deficit for me against people who are near my speed.
My technique is probably as good as itās going to get given my ability as well. I know itās not terrible - I can even swim with some 4:30 HIM guys in the local tri club and keep up no problem, but most of those guys are a lot younger than me, and are working a lot harder due to inefficiencies in their stroke that I can see, not that Iām close to excellent, but Iām definitely smoother and better than they are. (They have superior engines, Iām lucky to clip 5 hrs at age 50).
The answer should always go back to what are your goals. If your goals are to win the WC ( Sam Long seemingly tells us atleast once in every video he wants to be a world champion etc), then the answer is it doensāāt matter what it takes- until you gain those potential 20s to make the next pack, your not going to accomplish your goal. So I was shocked that I heard Longās ābiggest volume weekā was less than 35k yards. So then I wonder, has he really maxed out his ability that you AG experts on ST keep saying has happened? Not to say he has to go to 85k yards, but Iām shocked a guy like him didnāt do some āswim volumeāā blocks where he swims 8 times a week to get closer to 50k type of volume just on sheer math. 2hrs a swim is going to be ~6.5k an swim. Do that 6 times a week and you suddenly get near 40k on just 6 x 2 hour swims. He said in a 2022 ST interview oddly enough he was doing 30k yards in 8 swims.
My guess is he still has room for improvements and weāll likely know how well this remote swim coaching plan plays out over the next year or so. Heās still young enough that he will see benefits from that setup, whereas a guy like LS is so close to the end, thereās no point in doing anymore swimming then needs to cus heās got what 1.5 years max? He doesnāt have the time to devote to swimming that a guy like Long does who will be 31 this year.
I kinda disagree in some sense. Weāve all followed these guys for years. And I wonder more or less if this ends up being more like golf. Theyāre gonna shoot their best that day and the only hope is the other guys shoot poorly because otherwise they have no chance. Like at the Masterās thereās a bunch of guys invited who are there just to be fodder. SL and LS are solid top 5-10 guys at top races but can end up 15th if they blow up. But if Kristian blows up, maybe theyāre top three or even winning.
Just food for thought.
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Right but how many pack fodders talk up that they want to win WCās every time they are in front of a camera that Long does? There was a middle of road PGA tour guy, last year he got asked why he still golfs when he knows he canāt winā¦.āCus 34th place pays a hell of a lot of moneyā. Now obviously that isnāt the case in triathlon, but the point remains- match your goals to meet whatever demands of competition you want to accomplish. If your saying in every video you want to win a WC and your still not even chase pack swimmerā¦..welll you better get to work in the swim. This idea that youāve āmaxedā out doesnāt cut it.
Thatās why I always go back to- demands of competition. Every athlete will have a different path to meeting that. That should always be your compass to what your training needs to be. So when I read from you guys that Sam Long has maxed out his ability, and I find out his max swim volume for any week is only 35k, then heās not maxed out his swim ability, irregardless of what you anonymous ST AGerās say. If you had said heād done tons of volumes for years on end, then yeah thatās probaly agree, but the dude is 31 years old and self coached himself for what 4 years in the prime of his pro career in the weakest event that has a very big impact in our sport (he did some AB club swimming as part of that training as well, but he probaly did the majority of his swim traininng with no coach on deck)ā¦..yeah make that make senseā¦ā¦.you lose all credibilty when you say an athlete has āmaxedā out their swim ability under those circumstances- full stop. No one gives a flip about you AGāers n = 1 comparisons when we are talking about meeting world championships demands.
I canāt believe he says he is still making nutritional mistakes. Forgot his Nerd Belt,didnāt take enough gels for the run?This isnāt his first race for heavens sake.
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Iāll bet with guys like Sam and most people who are at a pretty big plateau, swimming megavolume only helps transiently. The moment they stop swimming megavolume, the gains disappear. Ari tried this, and I recall several other pros as well who have done this. One woman top short course pro was sort of injured in running and swam like 80k a week in the leadup to a race and didnāt even come out first, and she was always a pack-leading swimmer in most of her races. Sam would have to swim like 40+k/wk and STAY swimming that much for the gains to stick, and the gains might be miniscule. (Iād say likely to be miniscule.)
If he saw he was gaining with more volume, he def would have done this already. Heās probably already seen that the difference between 20k and 35k is almost zero at his ability, without sacrificing his run-bike.
And they are going to feel trashed for weeks and their bike and run workouts will suffer more than they gain on the swim.
Sam is just mostly going to be 2-3min down on his HIM swims. Occaisonally, with a current, lucky break etc. he might break into 1:30, but it will be mostly beyond his control.
As to his world championship aspirations, the one thing Oceanside shows is if things line up right and he executes a perfect race he can win. In hindsight, there actually was a fine line path for him to win in a world championship qualify field at Oceanside. Yes my was an unlikely longshot, but KB being a little too complacent on the bike opened the door for him.
That said, they are all likely going to be even fitter in Nice and Kona with an even deeper field.
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If your a pro triathlete and your max swim volume is 35k and your a non FOP swimmer, you have never really done a swim focused block imo. 35k is not a lot of volume for pro triathletes, when they are pobaly at min swimming ~25k on just 4 swims a week. Letās also add this has been for over 4 years Sam Long building his own workouts. His swim coach in the 1st interview basically said Longās workout structure made no sense. So if your telling me Long plateauād himself when he was self coaching, all your really doing is proving my point. Get in front of a coach with as much swimming as you can. Donāt self coach yourself, donāt swim majority of your swims alone in your HOA pool. Of course that is probaly going to be the easiest pathway to plateau. So give this āswim coachā era 2 years and see what happens, why the hell not (isnāt that basically what he said last summer). Obviously the self swim coaching hasnāt gotten him better, so heās now kinda done a hybrid approach- get swim help and likely do swim coachās workouts but still doing them mostly solo (likely doing video feedback for help).
You need to call SL and coach him if youāre so sure you can help him get the results he needs. Iām super skeptical, to say the least.
Last I checked he has a swim coach w/ Harper that heās working with and both have seen improvements.
Since you beat the heās plateauād drum over and over any chance you can get, and can do nothing to improve do you see it as a waste to get a swim coach? Yes or no
If 35k weekly yards is so thrashing to an athlete, the programming is wrong. Those guys should easily be swimming near ~25k on 4 swims a week easily as likely a standard min week. So Iām not advocating to go and get up to 80k yards for a winter block, but that his max āvolumeā week is only roughly 35% more than what is likely a standard pro triathleteās swim volume, thatās likely not āmaxed out his abilityā that you guys keep saying is happening.
In a 2025 Jan video he admits he had no understanding of actual swim programming concepts. He literally admitted he didnāt know the art of swimming, yet he was programming his swim plan for 3 years prior, like NO DUH he plateauād under that setup, lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1unc5R3G29A (9:20 mark of video)
So letās see what can happen for Long with this Harper led swim programming. Itās gotta be better than Long led swim programming, thatās for sure, you wouldnāt argue that would you?