The "Norwegian Method" Coaching App

Triathlon Forum
61

Yes checking your lactate 2-3 times a week is going to become the norm for AG athletes. (End pink)

Again it’s going to work to what each athlete brings to table and wants to take advantage of. IE- you’ll get out what you want to put into it. I simply do not think consistent lactate testing is going to become an “norm” in training for triathlon. Eta: **could it become the norm for FOP racing, sure, but the idea that this is going to revolutionize training to include lactate taking, I’m not buying into. I’ve been around this sport too long to recognize what athletes are willing to do and not willing to do on a generalization scale. **

Does half the sport even have PM’s (you can get a reliable PM for $600 and even cheaper for the most basic levels)? The top end of the sport is almost all w PM’s but I would wonder if even half the sport races w a PM. So do I think an even more “detailed” oriented w/ pricking your ear……I just don’t see it. Again I think it’ll trickle down into fop athletes mostly. That can easily be enough to make it financially viable though.

this part is important. remember that luc van lierde won kona in 1996 training with lactate. they were advertising meters in triathlete magazine back then. this isn’t new tech and i think for many people regularly doing finger/ear pricks and testing their blood mid-workout is a bridge too far.

but we could be coming up on a breakthrough here, too. maybe a patch similar to the glucose monitors we’re seeing?

62

Yes checking your lactate 2-3 times a week is going to become the norm for AG athletes. (End pink)

Again it’s going to work to what each athlete brings to table and wants to take advantage of. IE- you’ll get out what you want to put into it. I simply do not think consistent lactate testing is going to become an “norm” in training for triathlon. Eta: could it become the norm for FOP racing, sure, but the idea that this is going to revolutionize training to include lactate taking, I’m not buying into. I’ve been around this sport too long to recognize what athletes are willing to do and not willing to do on a generalization scale.

Does half the sport even have PM’s (you can get a reliable PM for $600 and even cheaper for the most basic levels)? The top end of the sport is almost all w PM’s but I would wonder if even half the sport races w a PM. So do I think an even more “detailed” oriented w/ pricking your ear……I just don’t see it. Again I think it’ll trickle down into fop athletes mostly. That can easily be enough to make it financially viable though.

this part is important. remember that luc van lierde won kona in 1996 training with lactate. they were advertising meters in triathlete magazine back then. this isn’t new tech and i think for many people regularly doing finger/ear pricks and testing their blood mid-workout is a bridge too far.

but we could be coming up on a breakthrough here, too. maybe a patch similar to the glucose monitors we’re seeing?

There’s some research into lactate based on sweat which is interesting (especially since it is not intrusive), but very early stage. Here’s one example (you can google and find a few): Lactate Biosensing for Reliable On-Body Sweat Analysis | ACS Sensors
Also, if I recall Abbott was saying they are looking at extending their glucose sensor to also track lactate.

So I think there’s reasonable chance this is coming in the next few years.

63

Maybe TR is too much for some people. If anything, people pick way too much volume.

I find it incredibly useful with the new AI model. Since I go from a spring 70.3 to Crit season, another 70.3 then MTB and gravel races, then 70.3 and then into CX season, it does a great job of progressing me from long endurance, sharpens to the crits and MTB then back to endurance building then super spiky work for CX.

I don’t burn out at all on it.

I use TR for a few years, then went to two different coaching services and then back to TR this year.

My FTP or what ever we would like to call it (I prefer to just call it training power point) went from 375 TR then down to 330-350 coached and now most of a year back into TR back up to 370 again at close to age 50. I find the sweet spot to be the most rewarding for training time in my life.

64

I am biased since I am connected to the Entalpi team, but triathletes are already collecting loads of data with their sensors. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to use these data to improve your training even more? The Norwegian method is not only about collecting data, but a big part of it is about using the data you have in an optimal way to improve your training (and race times).

Hei Jon Helge

This looks really interesting.
I am also impressed with the knowledge of the people behind, Øyvind S is a good example.

Do not expect a lot of praise on this board. You would expect people to be interested in how they can apply the same structure as the Norwegian on their level.
(same way as all the AGs and youth xc-skiers are doing :slight_smile: )

Good luck

Dette vil blir bra.

65

I think this quote sums it up pretty well. There is more to the Norwegian method than lactate testing and we believe that Entalpi can give value to athletes and coaches at all levels.
It is to early to go into too much details on what will be included in the first versions of the app, but if you subscribe to the newsletter at https://www.entalpi.com/ you will get updated when there is more to share.

I am biased since I am connected to the Entalpi team, but triathletes are already collecting loads of data with their sensors. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to use these data to improve your training even more? The Norwegian method is not only about collecting data, but a big part of it is about using the data you have in an optimal way to improve your training (and race times)…

The problem with this vague info given from Entalpi is it entices people to theorize shortfalls and dismiss the product before it’s ever released. You believe the app can give value to athletes and coaches? That should go without saying. Yes, it would be nice to use data to improve training, but how?

Here’s what we know: Team Norway does high volume, double threshold days at MLSS. They collect data on power, pace, heart rate, and blood lactate, (along with exotic tests like deuterium water to track hydration, which I can’t imagine would be applicable). If the app does not require a lactate meter to be effective, then it is functionally a Trainerroad style AI app that incorporates high volume and double threshold days. (although I have to imagine, for marketability, the high volume plans will be supplemented with 3-4hr/wk programs to increase the likely userbase).

66

For anyone that has followed this type of training and used lactate measurements along the way, can you translate some of the workouts in this Marius Bakken article into pace/power zones? I know that isn’t really the point and using lactate is a completely different approach, but I think this is somewhat relevant to the original topic of this app that is presumably going to deliver training prescriptions without lactate measurements needing to be involved.

Some general questions related to why I’m interested in the translation…

  1. Throughout a lengthy threshold interval session, does lactate stay consistent with pace? Or are they potentially slowing down or speeding up the pace to keep lactate at/below the threshold towards the end of the session?
  2. How long does it take for lactate to rise during an interval? The 45 second - 1 minute threshold intervals seem odd to me. It sounds like they are doing these at an intensity such that the lactate measurement is at or just over threshold after the interval. However, he also states that these intervals are faster speeds. So are these just typical “Zone 5” intervals disguised as “threshold” because the lactate happens to only rise to just above threshold over the short interval?
  3. How much of a pace/power difference is there between threshold (3.0 mmol’l in the article) and 2.0 and 2.5 mmol/l?

This quote was particularly interesting, “Second, your threshold speed will be higher doing intervals and it is also easier to have a progression of speed throughout the session doing this.” It seems to indicate that “threshold speed” changes depending on the type of workout as well as throughout the workout.

67

For anyone that has followed this type of training and used lactate measurements along the way, can you translate some of the workouts in this Marius Bakken article into pace/power zones? I know that isn’t really the point and using lactate is a completely different approach, but I think this is somewhat relevant to the original topic of this app that is presumably going to deliver training prescriptions without lactate measurements needing to be involved.

Using the 5 zone model of the Norwegian “Olympiatoppen” you would typically be in zone 3 for most MLSS workouts. You could be entering zone 4 as well but that would depend on your biological profile. I think the experience most athletes have is that MLSS training feels ridiculously easy. “This is too slow” is pretty much what anyone (me included) getting on the program would say as it corresponds to what you’d think is easy aerobic work.

Some general questions related to why I’m interested in the translation…

  1. Throughout a lengthy threshold interval session, does lactate stay consistent with pace? Or are they potentially slowing down or speeding up the pace to keep lactate at/below the threshold towards the end of the session?

Boring answer but it depends. Typically you want to ease into the first interval and the let the speed come to you. Most days lactate is pretty consistent throughout the session for me on the run but drops pretty rapidly on the bike. It also depends on what/if I have eaten and if it is the first or second session of the day. My best recommendation though is to do longer intervals. Firstly it gives the lactate a chance to stabilize but more importantly you will be able to calibrate the lactate feeling.

  1. How long does it take for lactate to rise during an interval? The 45 second - 1 minute threshold intervals seem odd to me. It sounds like they are doing these at an intensity such that the lactate measurement is at or just over threshold after the interval. However, he also states that these intervals are faster speeds. So are these just typical “Zone 5” intervals disguised as “threshold” because the lactate happens to only rise to just above threshold over the short interval?

I haven’t tried something like 25 x 400 or anything shorter than 1200m with lactate measurements tbh so I dont know. What I do know is that Marius talks about sessions like this as beneficial in terms of a high mechanical load without being too taxing metabolically. I have tried 15 x 400 done as best average and that has nothing to do with 25 x 400 so I wouldn’t call the 25 x 400 a zone 5 interval.

  1. How much of a pace/power difference is there between threshold (3.0 mmol’l in the article) and 2.0 and 2.5 mmol/l?

Here I am speculating but I would guess there are big individual differences based on a number of parameters. I can only tell you how paces differ for me. Last week I did 5 x 2.17k in the woods (so take the pace with a grain of salt) with 1.8 mmol after number 3 (3.55 min/km) and 3.3 after number 5 (3.41 min/km). 8.28 vs 7.59 so roughly 6% different. My LT1 is pretty consistent at 1.2 and my LT2 at 2.7 in lab tests (8x6min). I am quite heavy (85kg) so it could be very different for other athletes. The delta would also change if I did 1k repeats or 3k repeats.

Hope this helps.

68

I think this quote sums it up pretty well. There is more to the Norwegian method than lactate testing and we believe that Entalpi can give value to athletes and coaches at all levels.
It is to early to go into too much details on what will be included in the first versions of the app, but if you subscribe to the newsletter at https://www.entalpi.com/ you will get updated when there is more to share.

I am biased since I am connected to the Entalpi team, but triathletes are already collecting loads of data with their sensors. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to use these data to improve your training even more? The Norwegian method is not only about collecting data, but a big part of it is about using the data you have in an optimal way to improve your training (and race times)…

The problem with this vague info given from Entalpi is it entices people to theorize shortfalls and dismiss the product before it’s ever released. You believe the app can give value to athletes and coaches? That should go without saying. Yes, it would be nice to use data to improve training, but how?

Here’s what we know: Team Norway does high volume, double threshold days at MLSS. They collect data on power, pace, heart rate, and blood lactate, (along with exotic tests like deuterium water to track hydration, which I can’t imagine would be applicable). If the app does not require a lactate meter to be effective, then it is functionally a Trainerroad style AI app that incorporates high volume and double threshold days. (although I have to imagine, for marketability, the high volume plans will be supplemented with 3-4hr/wk programs to increase the likely userbase).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbPsG7TD1bw
this might help you a bit .

69

Thanks for the reply, that does help. So definitely slower pace than 10k race pace, more like half marathon race pace? Or even slower? And you mention cycling, do you use power at all too? Where do these sit on the %FTP scale if you use that?

So for cycling (and I know this is just your individual experience) you’re saying that if you did the intervals at a constant power, then the first one or two would be higher lactate and then the rest of them lower but consistent after it drops? So therefore you do the first few at lower power with the goal of lactate being consistent for all intervals?

Yeah, I suppose 10k worth of 400s is pushing it for zone 5 paced work, but I wouldn’t think that would be out of the question for top athletes. About 30 minutes of work in zone 5. I have often thought that shorter repeat zone 5 work probably has more in common with zone 4 work that it does with extended zone 5 work (repeats lasting 3-5 minutes).

That’s a smaller pace span than I would have expected from 1.8 to 3.3 mmol. So those progressive sessions described in the article aren’t huge builds.

70

Thanks for the reply, that does help. So definitely slower pace than 10k race pace, more like half marathon race pace? Or even slower? And you mention cycling, do you use power at all too? Where do these sit on the %FTP scale if you use that?

Depends on your level. For me it would be somewhere between marathon and half marathon pace (but closer to the latter) as I am quite slow. But if you can do LT2 work for 70min and you are fast (Blu, Iden etc) you won’t have a problem delivering a half marathon at LT2. Yes I use power for cycling. My 3min ATH power is 513w (March 2020) and my 20min ATH power is 367 (October 2019). My LT2 is in the range 270 - 300w depending on the when and the where etc.

Note though that both ATH numbers are done sitting up whereas LT2 is given in TT position. I have measured lactate under 2mmol after 10min @ 310w while sitting up but my LT2 isnt anywhere near my FTP.

So for cycling (and I know this is just your individual experience) you’re saying that if you did the intervals at a constant power, then the first one or two would be higher lactate and then the rest of them lower but consistent after it drops? So therefore you do the first few at lower power with the goal of lactate being consistent for all intervals?

It varies from day to day. But in July I did the following session that illustrates some fluctuations. 8 x 10min TT with 2min rest:

250w (2.3mmol) - 250w (1.6mmol) - 260w (2.0mmol) - 270w (2.4mmol) - 270w (2.1mmol) - 280w (3.2mmol) - 275w (2.7mmol) - 275w (2.6mmol)

Whenever lactate is under 2.3mmol I increase 10w. If it is over 2.7mmol I decrease 5w. I normally do my bike workouts in the morning before work so lactate is higher than it would be in the afternoon. This session however was done on a day off from work. I still start out pretty low and build into the session.

Yeah, I suppose 10k worth of 400s is pushing it for zone 5 paced work, but I wouldn’t think that would be out of the question for top athletes. About 30 minutes of work in zone 5. I have often thought that shorter repeat zone 5 work probably has more in common with zone 4 work that it does with extended zone 5 work (repeats lasting 3-5 minutes).

That’s a smaller pace span than I would have expected from 1.8 to 3.3 mmol. So those progressive sessions described in the article aren’t huge builds.

Again, this is an N=1 experiment and I am fat and unfit so it probably isnt representative for the population as a whole.

71

Thanks for the follow-up. Interesting to see some example data!

72

I think this quote sums it up pretty well. There is more to the Norwegian method than lactate testing and we believe that Entalpi can give value to athletes and coaches at all levels.
It is to early to go into too much details on what will be included in the first versions of the app, but if you subscribe to the newsletter at https://www.entalpi.com/ you will get updated when there is more to share.

I am biased since I am connected to the Entalpi team, but triathletes are already collecting loads of data with their sensors. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to use these data to improve your training even more? The Norwegian method is not only about collecting data, but a big part of it is about using the data you have in an optimal way to improve your training (and race times)…

The problem with this vague info given from Entalpi is it entices people to theorize shortfalls and dismiss the product before it’s ever released. You believe the app can give value to athletes and coaches? That should go without saying. Yes, it would be nice to use data to improve training, but how?

Here’s what we know: Team Norway does high volume, double threshold days at MLSS. They collect data on power, pace, heart rate, and blood lactate, (along with exotic tests like deuterium water to track hydration, which I can’t imagine would be applicable). If the app does not require a lactate meter to be effective, then it is functionally a Trainerroad style AI app that incorporates high volume and double threshold days. (although I have to imagine, for marketability, the high volume plans will be supplemented with 3-4hr/wk programs to increase the likely userbase).

The solution is still under heavy development, which means that it is not easy to give a lot of details on what feature set that will be included in the first public release.
The Norwegian Method has several elements:
Testing and profiling (with or without lacate)Intensity control during workouts (with or without lactate)“Intensity and load” control during micro, meso and macro cycle planning and executionIndividualisation, Individualisation and Individualisation
All these elements of the Norwegian Method are contributing to the success we have seen with the Norwegian athletes lately and the intention is to make them available for athletes with Entalpi

73

Some more insight into what the Norwegians are doing when it comes to use of sensors during training https://www.220triathlon.com/training/long-distance/how-kristian-blummenfelt-plans-to-win-kona/
.

74

Also, adaptive training is a bit stupid because if you mark a VO2max session as “hard”, it asks you why it was hard. I mean it’s VO2max for Chrissakes, even if the work interval is short and the recovery reasonable and total time at VO2max far from what I can achieve, how is my RPE ever going to be low?

That’s such an ignorant comment. As you go through a training block, VO2max should get easier. But furthermore, you give an algorithm lazy inputs and it will give you lazy outputs.

75

New video about this

https://youtu.be/t73tCc_BA2c?si=nWNo_ipCvKJOOUv3
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