What’s the longest run you do before an IM? It seems like most people do shorter long runs than they would if training for a stand alone marathon. Also, do you do your long runs the same speed whether training for an IM or marathon?
I’m especially curious about those who plan to run in the 3:15-3:45 range off the bike, but wouldn’t mind hearing from faster or slower runners as well.
3:15 - 3:45 is too long.
Build slowly until 2:30 is a regular weekly session.
Any longer just tempts injury and/or fatigue, neither of which will do your training any good.
Doogs
I was referring to 3:15-3:45 as an expected IM marathon split 
.
I think that what you do depends on three things:
The facts are that any type of running at a modest pace beyond 2 hours, results in a modest to significant amount of muscular micro-trauma. That why the safe thing to do is cap it at 2 1/2 hours.
Running back ground and history
Durability
Rate of recovery
You need to look at these points carefully and then come up with a plan that works for you.
For many newcomers, to triathlon and running, and lets’ face it, my guess is that’s the majority, increasing run frequency is going to be the biggest and best thing you can do. By that I mean increaseing the number of days/week that you run to 5, 6 or even 7 days. At first keep the overall weekly volume just slightly higher than it is when running 3 days/ week, and then build it up slowly. Over a several month block of time, this WILL yield significant results.
Fleck
Jason, I confirmed my earlier suspicions that the IM run requires much more strength than a stand alone marathon. Find some hilly long runs and run those routes. My 2 longest scheduled were 2.75h. I missed both due to illness and regretted it during the IM. I got two runs in over 2 hrs and for me, I deem it a few too many. The plan was long run every other week with a 1.5-1.75 on the odd weeks. Should I ever do another one, I’ll stick to the long long runs every other week, the up to 1.75hr runs on the other weeks and add in another hour run or each week. I’ll also find some hard trails (lots of uphills) to run.
Frequency and consistency are also important.
Brian,
Agreed on the hills. Over the years, I have come tot he conclsion that you can’y ever run too many hills in training getting ready for an IM run or even a marathon. Running in hilly terrain builds a type of “stength” that you will not get if you run on the flats all the time.
If your key IM race or marathon has a flat course, the one thing that you may want to do is do thelast few longer runs completely on the flat to simulate this, but do just about everything else in the hills. Not sure what to say to people who live in a flat area.
Fleck
But just about every marathon training plan has long runs that go up to 20 miles, which for most people doing marathons, is significantly longer than 2.5 hours. Do you think that’s a bad idea?
It’s getting into a debateable area here. There are several different approachs with marathon prep programs, based on the theories of those people espousing the programs. The generally regarded absolute limit that I have heard is 20 miles or 3 hours, which ever comes first. But that may only be once and it is suggested that, that effort be 3 - 4 weeks out from the marathon to allwo for full recovery.
Fleck
This is a great post!
I am training to do a half-IM in September but my longest run so far is 7 miles. I may be a little behind on my mileage build-up and I am trying to figure out the best way to increase my mileage without getting injured or affecting too much on recovery times so I can continue my bike and swim training!!
I am trying to incorporate the “frequency method” (if it can be called that!) in my training and so far is working ok!!
I’ve done a handful of IM races in the 3:25-3:45 range (I’d like the 3:15 but it hasn’t happened). I usually run 2-3 marathons or 50Ks from Nov-Mar with typical, stand alone long runs of 20-22 miles. After that, if I’m training for a fall IM I’ll usually do at least one 14-16 mile run per week on 3 out of 4 weeks, and a 20 mile run about 1x per month. My goal IM pace is about 8min/mile and I’m pretty sure that’s what I do my long runs at (which fits into the 2.5 hr rule). I generally do my run training with a group of marathon runners so I don’t pay too much attention to time, pace or HR. I just run along and BS about the Cardinals, the Illini, religion, politics and younger women (not necessarily in that order).
What a lot of people do when preparing an IM (compared to a stand alone Marathon) is to run off a long bike ride. For example run 45 minutes (at IM run pace) after a 5 hour bike ride. Or run 1h30 after a shorter ride.
This will allow you to run while fatigued, but without the trauma of running 3 hours.
IM LP’05 will be my first IM. I have run 5 marathons prior, with #6 being done on May 1 (14 weeks out). My plan is to recover for a few weeks post mary, but still get in a 1.5-2hr long run during the recovery stage, and then build again through June and 1st part of July. For my 5 previous marathons, I have gone beyond the 20-mile point and beyond the 3-hr time. For this upcoming marathon, I have tried to keep my long runs in around the 2-3hr range, but have never gone over 3hrs. The maximum distance was 21 miles. I was training for Around the Bay 30k, so I was on the hills for most of the long runs, and have continued to run on hilly routes since. I am hoping that this different method of training will help improve on my 3:38pb marathon. If so, then I am hoping for a 4hr IM marathon, although probably 4.5hr is more realistic.
Sort of a related question. At a clinic with my tri club a few weeks ago, we had a local running coach talking about marathon training plans, and he advocated the “nothing longer than 2.5 hours” approach.
So someone asked, “2.5 hours may make sense for someone who’s going to run the marathon in about 3 hours… but what about for someone who is going to run it in 4 hours? For a slower runner, is there any fitness benefit to extending the long run that outweighs the disadvantage of muscle trauma.”
I guess another way to ask: “If we all cap our long run at 2.5 hours, does does the faster marathoner have an advantage on race day, having experienced a training run much closer in time/distance to his race-day run?”
The coach did not really have a good answer to this, just repeating that he felt you should cap your long run at about 2.5 hours for the reasons explained.
Again, It’s a bit of a debateable area. My feeling is that IF the runner is durable, and IF the runner has shown a propensity to recover well from such efforts and IF the runner has had no injuries in the last year, then well out from the marathon (3-4 weeks), I would say try a 3:00 run. However, please note all those “IF’s”
I think we all get caught up in this one-race-at-a-time approach - if I do these series of workouts how will it help me for this race. The better approach is to look at bit more long term. Doing a couple of three hour runs this year, and not having to worry about how long you recovery after or trying to jam them into a program to get ready for marathon X or IM Y, may help you for your IM prep next year or the year after.
Fleck
Quadzilla I think I would answer it differently. If you know your doing a 4-6+ IM marathon you also know your going to be walking. The way to extend that long run w/out causing too much more muscle tramua is to incorporate walking into your long run. I’d still put a ceiling on it but that depends upon the athlete, where they are with their training and is something that needs to be discussed on an individual level.
I don’t think there is a clean answer as most marathon plans tell you to get several 20 milers (about 3 hours for us mere mortals) in and most Ironman plans say to limit your runs to 2:30 hours. I think when people/coaches suggest limiting your LSD run to 2.5 hours, they are assuming your have built an aerobic base. My long run is only 2:15 to 2:30 but I have an aerobic base that could easily carry me to 4:00 hours if needed. So, if you are totally cooked in an easy 2 hour run, you might need to examine if you have developed an aerobic base sufficiently. Building that base takes a lot of time and frequency at low HR running. I think once you develop that aerobic base, you can use the Gordo plan and go super long on the bike rides to continue to develop your aerobic system and muscular endurance and then limit your LSD runs to 2:30 and be fine for the IM.
What a lot of people do when preparing an IM (compared to a stand alone Marathon) is to run off a long bike ride. For example run 45 minutes (at IM run pace) after a 5 hour bike ride. Or run 1h30 after a shorter ride.
This will allow you to run while fatigued, but without the trauma of running 3 hours.
I did something like that this weekend - a 50m bike, 7.5 m run, 50m bike, 7.5m run brick.
I actually think the hardest run is the half ironman run in a hot area like Orlando or Miami. Trying to run a half marathon in the late morning hours is extremely challenging in the heat of FL.
That’s why I think doing a couple of Half IM’s is such good prep for a full.
I think once you develop that aerobic base, you can use the Gordo plan and go super long on the bike rides to continue to develop your aerobic system and muscular endurance and then limit your LSD runs to 2:30 and be fine for the IM.
That’s what I’ve always done, maybe doing one 2:40 run but capping it at 2:30 for the most part. I was just wondering if I would gain anything by doing a couple of longer runs before Brazil as I recover very quickly and almost never get injured. I really need to run 3:30 and was thinking of ways to help me get there.
I’ve run seven marathons, and my best time is a 3:47. My experience is only with marathons as my longest tri to date is Olympic length. I’ve run at least one 20 miler in training for each marathon and have never run a 20 miler in training in less than 3:00. Since the whole point of running a marathon is to run 26 miles 385 yards and not to run for X number of minutes, I think you should run up to 20 miles in training, at least once, if you want to run a marathon. When I was starting out, I probably would not have run much more than 15 miles in 2:30 in training. If I had stopped there, I would not have had been able to finish a marathon. Now, maybe I should have run 10 Ks, and half marathons etc until I got fast enough to run more than 15 miles in 2:30, but I had no interest in running such races, but the original goal of running a marathon got me out the door and running six years ago.
As to frequency of running versus total length, my experience is that I am better off injury wise if I run fewer days and more distance per day. It also seems to me that running 8 miles, taking a day off, and then running 8 miles is better training for a marathon than running 6 miles three days. Of course, I’m almost 40, and my legs can’t take as much pounding as it could when I was younger. Different things work for different people.
I’m also sure that it increases your risk of injury if it takes you more than 2:30 or 3:00 to run 20 miles. But, it also increases your chance of finishing if you run 20 miles in training instead of capping out at 2:30 and only 15 or 16 miles. As to the original question, I don’t think that the approach matters as what I have read indicates that you should probably be able to run 20 miles in about 2:30 in training if you are going to run a 3:15 to 3:45 marathon in an IM.