Ah, see I don’t see that happening. Because of the proportionality of men vs. women, the field is unlikely to be split 50/50. Slots would have to return to the prorated system based on size of AG wherein men received proportionally more slots than women, which of course opens up that can of worms again.
Even if the split was different, Kevin and several hundred men (myself included btw) likely wouldn’t have qualified.
It’s not black and white if Ironman expects the business to grow. More races, more participants, less slots per race. When does qualifying become too hard?
I understand, I’m just saying the slot allocation system would have to revery to how it was managed back pre-2019. So it’s somewhat harder for women to qualify
My sneaking suspicion is that if they were going to go back to a single day of racing, they’re not going to give women fewer slots than men.
Which means I need to buy some Orville Redenbacher stock because there’s gonna be a lot of popcorn consumed for that one.
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Anyone have IM Florida 2024 slot allocation?
I know it was as 45 Kona, 75 Nice but don’t know how it broke down by AG.
The argument starts out with saying that Kona 2024 > Nice 2023 (since you’ve raced both) therefore the one day Kona only format > anything else.
You’re not making the right comparison. Nice is a temporary stop-gap because they had sold too many slots following 2022’s 2-day Kona. You’re also saying that Kona has a strong brand but Nice doesn’t. No duh - I don’t think anyone is arguing that. The first year of anything is going to take time to get the bugs worked out.
What the “pro-rotating / 70.3 format” crowd is arguing is that Kona itself is limiting. There’s only so many people willing to spend $$$ to race in the middle of the pacific so many times, the town limits IM to 1 day, and there’s only so many bikes that can fit on the pier.
Sure, KQ is a draw - and the uptake for Nice wasn’t the same as Kona. But the comparison is the future trajectory. Can a rotating IMWC be a draw on par (or bigger) than Kona. Maybe in a few years - but if you’re only comparing Nice to Kona today, then you’re not making the right comparison.
At some point, the question becomes - are you using Kona to draw more people to your sport, or is it limiting your reach for new/repeat customers? Every other year, we wonder and obsess over whether triathlon is growing or shrinking in the US/EU - at some point you have to wonder if hitching your wagon to the same thing we’ve always done is the right thing to do.
At the risk of allowing the US Election conversation to leak out of the LR, there’s a parallel here. Granted, we can’t vote for the IMWC solution but we’re campaigning all the same.
I want to qualify for Kona. I’ve wanted it since my first race 3 age groups ago. Undoubtedly, racing has gotten so damn fast in the last few years that it would take a herculean lift for me to even have an outside shot at KQ with 1200 slots. But, like the election, I am advocating for what I think is best overall. Not what is best for me.
I’ve raced on 4 continents and I saw the pull of Kona long before I moved to the USA. Ignoring the nascent years and the last 5 years as screwy due to COVID/dual WC, we have 3.5 decades of evidence that people from all over the world want to qualify and race at Kona.
Dev mentioned that outside the US the passion is generally for racing regardless of destination… I think this is an oversimplification. I grew up in Europe wanting to KQ. If they moved the race, that desire would have gone in an instant. Even if it was a “World Championship”. Many people come to this sport as a “completer/finisher” and get pulled into being competitive by the lure of Kona. This is, in part, where the lore comes from. Sure, there are folk who just want to race the best, but they don’t speak for everyone.
We can’t control all variables, but in my mind the bigger problem is not the second location (or day). It’s the dilution. More slots has placed an unreasonable burden on the local community and shortened our welcome. More slots to AGers was the obstacle to ‘50 Women to Kona’ a few years ago. Then more slots was the reason for two days of racing. Call me a cynic but after the 50WQ movement was rebuffed for so long, I don’t believe women’s racing was the real reason. COVID gave the final push, but that was the trend for years before.
The answer to me is unequivocally less slots. Put KQ races around the world and rotate them between courses each year. Don’t put slots at every race. Most people don’t have a shot to KQ now, but they keep showing up. The idea that making KQ more accessible doesn’t diminish the value defies logic.
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I just asked my friend in M35, he said everyone was there to accept and only the last spot rolled, idk how far though.
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Blockquote[quote=“Bryancd, post:22, topic:1282591”]
@devashish_paul I’m inclined to think that a single day WC event in Kona is a preferable route as it stands for both Ironman and for professionals, amateurs, and brand partners. More than one pro expressed the desire to see the race back together in Hawaii and felt winning the title elsewhere did not provide the same level of prestige or brand interest.
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I think that should read more than one male pro expressed the desire to see the race back together.
I’ve yet to read/hear/talk to a female pro since they split it into two days who said let’s have a 1 day race again.
The MPRO want it, the women - pro or AG, typically do not.
I think the FPRO (and top female AGers) don’t want to have to deal with all the AG men who get butt hurt when passed by a girl on the bike…and it’s A LOT of AG men according to the multiple top AG females I’ve coached
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Blockquote[quote=“Lurker4, post:51, topic:1282591”]
,what NEEDED to happen is the 25% of women who do turn up needed to be taking their slots in disproportionately larger rates than the men for it to ever work. IM gave the women a chance and the women didn’t take it in enough numbers
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I can’t and can believe you wrote this. It shows you do not understand how the dynamics are for most women in the sport and yes IM did need them to accept at a higher rate.
The reality is it’s a lot harder for women to accept slots even if both the M and F in the relationship do IM’s with the goal of getting a slot. As someone who historically coaches about 60-65% women you “IM gave them the chance” shows how out of touch you are with women in the sport
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No I really don’t.
Yup
Found that. I know people that were there and said the IM people were not forthcoming with information.
Odd - because it’s usually posted on the app.
The issue here is that Ironman is an events business, it is not a start up sports league. You cannot “invest” into a World Championship and hope that it magically grows the sport. There is an owner that wants return, there is a board that expects the CEO to do his fiduciary duty.
I’m not sure that Ironman lost money on Nice, because Nice paid a healthy host fee. But I’m pretty sure they’re not exactly flush from the deal either. Ironman, unlike PTO doesn’t have a billionaire that will just wish money away…(Advance has the money but that’s not the remit Derue has). Ironman has to be a sustainable business.
You would probably have to rotate this race for 10 years before it yields any kind of return, you would be tearing down your own culture in a hope that you get to the other side. That’s a hard sell.
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but isnt that exactly what the ironman kona nbc show did …
Must have been my slot. Was 7th and believe 8 were given out for M35-39. Unfortunately couldn’t accept because of life reasons but pretty torn up about it. Anecdotally, it seemed like the M25-29 through M40-44 slots for Nice didn’t roll too far at all. Echo some of what I have read here about it potentially gaining some momentum - hard to watch the pros race that course and not want to give it a shot - it’s beautiful. While Kona has a mystique about it, there’s no denying Nice is an outstanding venue.
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There’s a point to make about 70.3 worlds - the big argument is that 70.3 worlds didn’t start in the lava fields and has a distinct brand away from Kona so it can rotate - but it still sells out 5000 people every year, and we’re only 10 years from its inception as a rotating course.
In fact, the big shock to the IM staff in 2014 was that 70.3 WC could be held away from the USA and still be a success (talk about US centric thinking!). And that was 10 years ago! Now the 70.3 is brand is arguably more successful than IM in some respects (participation for starters). But 10 years ago, IM was worried about making it international in scope. Sound familiar?
I’ll also argue that the entire concept of the Pro race is itself a long-term investment. IM loses tons on money on the pros (millions, in fact), but they know that it’s good for their brand long-term. They’d be ok for a few years if they cut the pro field out next year but 10+ years from now they’d be worse off for it - so there are lots of long term investments they know to make.
IMFL, men 50-54. Ten slots rolled down to 18.
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There are no American winners since Tim DeBoom in 2003 at this point.
More proof positive that the womens don’t get their due.
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am I right in understanding that you qualified at IM Cairns? A search in the results of that race tells me you were 10th in your AG at 50 minutes from the winner.
That race had 55 slots, so you presumably received a roll down. How deep were the roll downs at that race?
Yes you’re right I qualified at IM Cairns. I was 10th in my AG (35-39) and 50th male. They had 6 slots in my AG and I’m the first to admit that I was extremely lucky to get the slot. I was exactly 8 minutes off 6th place and 16 minutes off 3rd. I got the last slot in my AG. I only got the slot because 4 folks above me either already had or didn’t want the slot - I was beyond nervous at the ceremony.
Because you couldn’t qualify to Kona you still went to Nice and did that on consecutive years.
Yes I went to Nice. My honest reasoning was: “Well while it’s not Kona, it’s the inaugural event. If this actually turns into something big, I’ll always have the memory to have participated and a story for my grandkids” 
I went there with the intention of purely participating - not even racing (My mind was fixated on Kona, despite being in Nice. I walked half the marathon to save my legs for IM California a few weeks later - hoping to qualify for Kona the next year)
I will not go back. I would only consider going back if qualifying for it became equally as competitive as Kona - and I have a hard time seeing that happen for the reasons I laid out in the blog.
I’m genuinely interested in understanding what’s your thought process and how would you feel if you had never been to Kona and you’d realise you can never make it because you’re constantly 30-35 minutes from second place.
This one is easy for me to answer: It would motivate me to keep trying, and to train harder + smarter. That’s the beauty of our sport: You get out what you put in. If I see I’m 8 minutes off 6th place or 16 minutes off 3rd place, what I think is: “That’s great! 16 minutes? Over a ~9h race? That’s just 3%! There’s no way I WON’T be able to eventually get there. I’ll keep working at it until I accomplish my goal. Improve my poor swim, get a little more aero on the bike, fix my dehydration issues and I got it!”
The last thing I would have wanted was for Ironman to make it easier for me (and anybody else) to get to Kona. It would have been severely demotivating and I would have felt robbed of the opportunity to have to work my bud off in order to make it to Kona. That’s what Kona is all about (to me): You only get there if you are willing to commit and work your bud off.
And I am still as motivated as ever to go back. Next time, I want to qualify without having to depend on a roll-down. I recently got 3rd in my AG at a 70.3 and got the Marbella slot without having to depend on a roll-down. In that case, I felt like I actually earned it. For Kona? Yes, I got lucky - and that definitely weakens the feeling of the accomplishment
(I apologise if my post comes out as too direct, I’m just trying to understand why you appear to like the previous system while being a beneficiary of the new one)
no need to apologize - I appreciate the directness and your desire to understand the thought process. You can be a beneficiary of a system and still disapprove of it!
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