The Customer is always right?

Triathlon Forum
1

Looking for some help/advice. Like many non-profit organizations (I’m thinking tri race directors might experience somethign like this), the swim team I coach for gets complaints from disgruntled parents (customers.) We do a very good job but of course sometimes we make mistakes and sometimes we get some very constructive criticisms.

My question is about the 3% of the people that do 95% of the whining. Nothing is ever right. Everybody chips in a couple bucks for team snacks and they want to pay less because their kid doesn’t eat as much. Everybody stays in the team hotel and they want to stay at relatives because its cheaper, but if they don’t have relatives they want to make sure everybody stays together to cut down costs. When their kid is 12 the 12 year olds pay the most per hour to swim it shoudl be less, when their kid turns 15 the seniors pay too much. The 12 yr olds should be paying more etc. I’m sure some of you in the retail business experience someone like this that returns things after wearing them or is never happy…

While many businesses live by the mantra that the customer is always right, what about when the customer is not. What if the local starbucks manager when confronted by someone who said “I don’t speak bullshit” turned around and politely said - “We don’t sell coffee to assholes” Our swim club may say - your money is not welcome here we spend half of our time dealing with your petty complaints. What if the customer that brings a bike back 5 times because the repair “didn’t work” when in reality they were mistreating the bike was told “Sorry I would rather you get your future repairs done elswhere.”

You will lose an immediate customer but if refusing to deal with the small percentage of people that cause the most work for you means you can do a genuinely better job for the vast majority (more time, more energy, less manpower required…) does it make sense to ignore “the customer is always right!” I realize you would have to be careful not do discourage constructive criticism and you don’t want people tiptoeing around worried they will be the next person to get the “NO SOUP FOR YOU”

Thanks for your thoughts or for pointing me in the direction of companies or places that take this type of no nonsense stand with their customers.

2

You are missing an important aspect. It is true that “the customer is always right.” What you are missing is that you have the altimate choice on who is allowed to be “the customer.”

3

A close friend of mine, Mr. Hugh TEmpleman, has been a long-time property manager for the Ritz-Carlton hotel chain.

I learned a lot about customer service from him. I asked him the exact same question you asked here.

He told me, “We do occasionally have to ‘fire’ customers.”

In Bob Tasca’s Book “You Will Be Satisfied” about customer service and satisfaction he also refers to the “2%” of people you will never make happy. In some industries (high end bicycles and luxury hotels for instance) the percentage is higher, maybe about 10%.

One of the big realizations I had to come to grips with in this business, especially being vocal and visible within our little region, is not everybody will buy their bike here and not everybody will like me.

At the end of the day you simply have to cut them loose.

The place to put your energy 100% in with the customers who are putting their faith and trust in you. Devote yourself 100% to them. Do anything for them. If a customer is devoted return the devotion X10. Even if it costs you some money it will be an excellent investment in good will and advertising.

If someone doesn’t like you or what you are doing don;t waste a single second or a penny trying to convince them otherwise. It is time and poorly spent that you owe your good customers.

4

I think much of that depends on what you are selling or what service you offer. Even hookers have limits. I sell running shoes and for me it is very hard to turn away a customer. The ones that i do say no to are generally very unplesant and most people who know them would agree. We all have a friend or coworker that is hard to be around at dinner. They treat the wait staff like crap, send their food back and ruin the meal for everyone. In that situation I would not think poorly of the restaurant and would make my own judgment as to going back there or not.

As I said, it is hard to turn away a customer but there is a line I draw. No treating my employees like crap, and no losing me a ton of money. I’ll eat a few pairs of shoes for someone who will come back and possibly send in their friends. It would take quite a bit of work for me to sent you out the door and at that point I would have no problem doing it.

Swim teams are a whole different story. I coached a team that had a standing policy of no parents on deck. Ever. It was great! When you signed up it was made very clear that the team would be run as the head coach saw fit. No questions. If you dont like it, go to another team. We had that ability because we were good and your child would get the best coaching available in the area. We also had a waiting list to be on the team. I just recently bumped into that coach at the swim trials where he had a few swimmers. I remember those swimmers and was very impressed that they had made it.

When you are purely selling something, you really have to be a whipping post for your customers. The more of a service you are providing, the more room you have to draw the line in the sand. With running shoes, we are selling a service as well as a pair of shoes. Bike shops sell a service as well with fitting and repairs. Coaching should be set in stone. A good coach will not EVER sway from the path that they see fit. It reflects you work, not a product. The product is your work, so you need to be able to stand behind it. “save for well done” is a great saying. A good chef knows that you cant tell a good cut from a bad cut when its well done.

This is getting out of hand. As you can see, work is slow right now. Maybe I should stop throwing customers out.

Bottom line. If they are unpleasant to you, they are probably unplesant to most people most of the time. No one will think poorly of you for giving them the boot.

5

My old boss ran a repair business. His motto was “The customer is rarely right but they are paying the bill”. That said, he had no problem cutting loose people who came back repeatedly so we could spend hours talking to them about their $5 repair. We would also be shortchanging the other customers by not getting their repairs done on time. Eventually he would say “I don’t think we can help you anymore” but it rarely came to that. Most of them would look a little shocked. I think they had no idea they were being such a huge pain the arse. I don’t think it has effected his business as he’s still going strong after 30 years. Dealing with this kind of B.S. is key running a small business, which is why I’d rather work for someone else. I have a low tolerance for whiners.

6

It’s a tough situation. The small company I work for is struggling largely due to the same problem, although 12 out of 15 customers are like that, it is the nature of our business. We are starting to turn things around by taking control of the relationship. We used to ask how they wanted to proceed, now, we tell them up front how to proceed and then we work hard to drive the pace so that they don’t have as much time to complain. In essence, we are setting expectations up front and staying on top of things to keep it that way.

I had 2 thoughts for you, first, what is your core product? What can you do that is going to have people knocking down your door to get on the swim team? If you have to get ugly with a couple parents will this materially effect the former?

Second is an experience I had on the other end. I bought one of the first FitSense watches when they first came out. I loved it, even through the inevitable start of production bugs. However, I just couldn’t get it to continue working for more than a few months. First sweat leaked in the watch face so they replaced it. Next, in the middle of a 20 mile run the HR stopped working, the speed and time continued to work, but the HR just went dead. So they replaced it. It seemed like this happened every couple months. Finally I called them for another replacement and they said they didn’t want me as a customer and gave me a full refund. If I was the cause of the problems, I don’t see how. I went out and bought a high end Polar with the bike functions and have used it for 3 years without a hitch. Now, anytime someone asks about FitSense I’m sure to tell them of my experience. Judging by the lack of FitSense watches I’m guessing that I’m not the only one telling of my experiences.

7

Coaching the Age Group Swimmer is a book you should have read if you haven’t already.

Put together an agreement before next season. Lay out everything ahead of time.

I have heard the suggestion to pay for meet fees and all incidentals in the fee for the club. Haivng to go back and ask for money later is just another opportunity to have another problem. I’d also put the agreement for the team hotel in the pre season agreement that the parent, coach and swimmer all sign.

8

A good friend of mine has been a full-time AG swim coach for almost 10 years now. He has a high tolerance for this sort of thing. But over the years, he has cut a few kids loose because of the way their parents act and treat others. It’s very unfortunate for the kids, but as a business operator, it’s a necessary decision. You can’t cater to the whims of a few folks at the expense of the rest of your paying customers. Do it as nicely as possible, smile as they yell and make a scene, and say “good luck.”

9

On the one hand I like the no parents on deck rule. On the other as a parent, no way would I agree to that in this day and age.

10

I’m a consultant, sort of a coach for financial matters. If the customer is always right, they don’t need me. If these kids’ parents know more about how to coach a swim team, they don’t need you. Don’t hesitate to send them packing. Some of them will come back next year with a new attitude, asking to get back on the team. The others you are better off without.

11

“…not everybody will buy their bike here and not everybody will like me.”

“If someone doesn’t like you or what you are doing don;t waste a single second or a penny trying to convince them otherwise.”

Wait a minute. Are you saying I have to like you to buy a bike from you? OK, what if I just want a tune-up?

12

In Tom D’s post he is right about “firing” some customers. Also much of the customer relationship is predicated on the stage of the business as well.
My partner and I started our business 10 years ago with sales around $2.5 MM. At that time we took any and all business and put up with a lot from that 3% that will never be satisfied. Today we are at $35MM+ and we did fire the 3% that were a problem. Ironically they are the smallest customers in terms of income potential yet the most demanding for service.

It is tough to do but it will pay in the long term both financially and emotionally.

Good Luck,

fal7

13

I take a no-nonsense approach with my clients, and that’s no joke. Sometimes, it’s not worth the income to be mistreated by a customer or client. In fact, there are people/former clients that I refuse to work with because they 1.waste my time, or 2. they are abusive to me. These former clients are generally businesses that have huge global presence, are the top of their industry, etc etc etc. I don’t care how “important” they think they are-I won’t be bullied, taken for granted, or sold short in any way. If a client is shitty to me–frankly, I close the door on them and find new prospects. Life is too short, and if they ask why, I will glady tell them right to their face.

Now your business is different than mine. But, I encourage you to PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN, and let these people know that they are not your main priority–the kids are. By not standing up for yourself or your staff you essentially ENABLE these a-holes to continue the mistreatment and whining.

Start by making a NO WHINE policy, and create a proceedure in which complaints are to be managed.

Send and email to all of the parents (or a letter) and let them know that the complaints are getting out of control and that over the years it seems that 3% of the people do 95% of the complaining. State that you are non-profit coaches, or volunteers (or whatever you are) and have had many successful years coaching. List some accomplishments. Then say, we would like to continually improve our swim team, and in order to do so we must spend more time on coaching and training and less time on managing suggestions (complaints). In order to successfully manage our time and meet our goal of an even more successful swim team, we have developed a streamlined approach to managing any suggestions (complaints). It is mandatory for all to comply to in order to have a suggestion (complaint) handled and delt with. Any complaints not following the proceedure, will be simply ignored, as with our new goals we do not have the time or ability to accept suggestions or complaints that are not properly filed.

Proceedure:

-please send in writing any form of suggestion that you have. phone calls, emails, coming to my house, talking with me while I’m coaching, or any other form of submitting a suggestion will not be accepted. Again, all suggestions must be in writing, and submitted in the form of a letter.

-send suggestions to: list address

-please allow 2 weeks for response.

*ok, so what you have done is acknowledge that you are in deed a successful team and have some examples backing that up. then, by stating that your goal is to better manage and be even more successful you validate the idea of setting up a proceedure to handle suggestions>who can argue with you wanting to focus more on the kids? third, you eliminate most random complaints because people simply won’t take the effort to write a letter. Plus, when people start to bitch, you can automatically say–thanks for your idea, but please submit a letter to suggestions and we’ll deal with it accordingly.

The bottom line is that alot of other parents know this is going on. Trust me, they don’t like it either. They will applaude you and support you, and the a-holes can either find another team, or get off of your back. And, if you have some psycho parents that start writing letters feverishly, you can write back and say, “It seems that our club is not able to meet your needs in terms of what you’re looking for in a swim team. While we would love to have Johnny continue on our team, it seems that your needs might be better suited with some other club that can meet all of your requirements. At this time, we are unable to change the rules, or any other format of travel, etc. Please let us know your final decision, but we are aware of your suggestions but elect not to make any changes at this time. Sincerely, John Doe.”

anyway-this is just my idea. good luck with it, and don’t let the a-holes get you down.

kittycat

14

My 2 cents:

While in college I worked as a ski instructor during the winter months in various resorts in Europe for a ski tour operator. Since I had taken some extra classes on ski instruction for kids I got lucky most of the time and either got to coach the fast young adults (10-15 years-old) or the real small ones (beginner to as fast as they come), aged 4-8. Lots of fun!!!

Parents were of course a problem - most of the time. Pretty quickly I got a routine down for the night before the first day of instruction for the parents: what to put into your kids pockets and what I would tolerate or not (I got some pretty good stares sometimes and even some wanted to start arguments but I could always make my point when quoting the specific incident that led to the rule.). One rule was most certainly that I was not going to have any parents skiing w/ or following us. If they wanted to take pictures they would meet us for a run or two at a specific spot, get their action shots done and had to disappear again. I explained that I had experienced too much drama and too many side-dialogues that would disrupt the group dynamics. The kids are actually confused as to whom to listen to. So, I totally encourage the “no parents on deck” rule.

While I managed to anticipate most problems after a while I also had a “democratic” way of dealing w/ problems coming up. Throw them in front of the group of kids and ask their opinion. Even young kids could handle that approach as long as I could make them understand what the issue was. In a “supervised” group environment they can usually solve problems pretty quickly and then influence their parents with the logic the group had developed. - If you are coaching kids I actually would take the more “idealistic” approach and say that the kids are the customers, not their parents. (And if you are really lucky some other parents are going to put some pressure on the annoying ones.) If the kids identify with the swim team and really want to be part of it they will shut up their parents.

So, in short: give them your set of rules up front and hand some of the responsibility over to the kids.

“Guys, we have had the snack discussion come up on several occasions. Do you want to have snacks and pay your share to the group (regardless of how much you consume) or does everyone want to bring their own?” (In your set of rules there should be one saying that it’s either all or nothing, no exception unless there are really convincing reasons…) “For the next road trip, do you want to organize your own accomodation or do you want to stay as a group somewhere?”

While I totally agree w/ the posts above for for-profit ventures I do think your non-profit status and the “educational” side of this should be considered as well…

Christina

P.S.: I have always been lucky w/ the parents of our team kids (the fast ones) who gave us three coaches a carte blanche and had already implanted a “no whining” attitude into their kids…

16

Really like Kitty’s approach. Here’s another suggestion.

Sit down with the complainers and explain to them, in as nice of a way as you can, exactly what’s going on. I think there are times when people are over the top with their demands. Unfortunately, I think there are some people that just don’t know when they have crossed that line.

Here’s an example. In our store, we have a 100% money back guarantee. We don’t get too many returns, but when we do we just chalk it up to the price of doing business. I have had customers that have abused this priviledge. Now I make it a policy to explain to anyone returning too many things that most times we just have to throw the products away, and that we are the ones that have lost the money on it. Many times, the customer has never thought about this. When I sit them down and explain this to them, sometimes they are very understanding and don’t abuse this policy anymore.

So back to you. If you sit down with the complainers, and explain what it going on, they may be more understanding. Again, I think some people just don’t know where that line is that they have crossed.

If they aren’t understanding, cut them loose. You will be way ahead of the game when you do. You will be able to give much better customer service to the good customers. And you will be so fired up about losing a customer, you will probably get 3 new customers just to make up for them.

Good Luck!!!

Jeff

17

As I was writing my post I was really wondering what the heck I am doing in super hot TX where the nearest skiing is waaaaaayyyy too far away. This morning in the car, American Airlines reminded me that the skiing season in Chile and Argentina is in full force - I WANT TO GO!!!

But coming to the point: I really like the Sella Ronda in Northern Italy - the views are just stunning and there is some back-country skiing if you know where to go (back-country skiing can be quite a costly adventure (as in fines) if you get caught - it’s forbidden pretty much everywhere…)… I also like the glacier in Kaprun (Austria) a lot (good chance for powder)… Haven’t seen much of France so I can’t tell you much about it… I like apres-ski as long as it doesn’t interfere w/ skiing (and the cost of a beer in town) so a lot of the really famous places don’t appeal to me… When you are trying to get 10 kids between the ages of 4 and 8 safely down a mountain at 3.30 PM but have some drunks who want to play domino w/ your group it’s no fun…

Did we just highjack this thread? Ooops, sorry! - My desktop shows snow-covered mountain and trees - it’s approx 100 F outside…

19

Christina:

I feel your pain, too, as I also live in Dallas. However, I’m moving to Denver next Monday, so you can have this god-awful heat and humidity all to yourself. :wink:

Oh… I guess you have to share with Tibbs, since he lives in the Dallas area, too.

20

While many businesses live by the mantra that the customer is always right, what about when the customer is not.

Before you get to the somewhat drastic step of firing your customers, how about trying to educate them? Are you sure that everyone understands why snack fees can’t be pro-rated? Why it’s important not to whine and complain? Why it’s important that everyone pull their weight?

Granted, some people are going to be impervious to any education of this sort, and in the end, you might need to ditch these people. But explaining the reasoning behind what you do might minimize the problem.

21

Mr. Mike…yes the Arlberg region and Stuben. Brings back fond memories of skiing in the Austia after the Gulf War ! Not that I had to go or anything. Did most of the work getting our CF-18’s ready back in Jan 1991 ! Unfortunately, I have not downhill skiied since 1992 ! Plan is to start downhill skiing again in three years with my wife and son as soon as the mortgage is paid off (yes, we do pay off our homes in Canada as there is no tax break for having a large mortgage), as this will free up big cash to downhill ski and its associated high cost lifestyle.

Christina brings up many good points with respect to parents and kids. I coach kids soccer (8-9 year olds) and coach 5-9 year olds in XC skiing and in all cases, the kids and the parents need to know that that the instructor is in charge and that the rules of the group are the rules of the group. As the kids get older, I just make sure that the kids enforce the rules of the group. For example, there are always kids hijacking the drills sessions in soccer not listening, and doing their own thing. The moment that I told the team that the ones wasting the time were eating away at srimmage time, was the day that the “group” started enforcing the rules of the team with the wayward ones.