You may want to take a look at this:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3867/is_200609/ai_n18755617
I think there is a discussion in this paper on the major decline in health and major increase in Western diseases amongst Indian (subcontinent of India) vegetarians who never change from being vegetarian. The only changes are in the westernization of that vegetarian diet, the breakdown of family and social structure, and increasing sedentarism.
I read The China Study and, along with Omnivore’s Dilemma and Diet for a New World (among several others), all of which led me to re-evaluate my diet and my approach to eating. There are far too many correlational cases put forward as evidence in *TCS *for my taste, but what I took away from the books was a lesson in consequences. Everything we put in our bodies comes with a hidden cost, partially to ourselves, but mostly to the world around us. The materials in these books gave me sufficient information with which to form an educated opinion and approach to finding a dietary balance that I can live with in practical and ethical terms, that results in better physical and ecological health.
The China Study made a big impact on me last year while I was reading it. But after some reflection, I thought Campbell weakened his case somewhat by not addressing some pro-meat arguments head-on. For example:
… that we have evolved to become omnivore,
… that other meat-eating traditional cultures seem to have been doing just fine. I’m thinking of:
… little to moderate consumption of meat in Vietnam (due to mostly to necessity),
… moderate to heavy consumption of wild meat in historic American Indian cultures,
… Ze French with their 360 varieties of cheese and their strange way of seeing everything that moves as a gustatory delight,
… the fish-crazy cultures of Japan, Korea, Scandinavia, and countless other maritime nations.
Ill health is not what comes to my mind when I think of these traditional cultures (I could be wrong though). So is Campbell prepared to condemn these cultures as well (he advocates a strict vegan diet for optimum health)? If he is, he sure didn’t spell it out. His silence on these subjects weakened the book in my opinion.
Having said this, he cuts an imposing figure on the American public health scene, and it is hard to dismiss him out of hand. Also his expose of the dirty politics behind the making of US public health policy is refreshing and courageous. If even 50% of what he says is true, we are in trouble indeed.
Also, lest y’all think that meat is meat, I will contend that (industrial) meat ain’t (real) meat in America, with possibly grave consquences for the carnivores amongst us. What you’re buying from the supermarkets, from beef to chicken to eggs to farm-raised fish, is only one step above pure crap in my opinion. Read “The Omnivore’s Dilemma” to get a better idea of how that food was raised and the kind of politics that goes on behind it… let’s just say that the chicken you buy at Publix is a far cry from the chicken that God had intended when He started his Work. That’s what I mean when I say meat ain’t meat in America. It would not surprise me one bit if our food (especially our meats) is making us sick here.
Jodi: I believe you hit the nail on the head: Genetics. Any new doc I see spends a great deal of time asking me my parents’ health history, their parents’ health history. I think genetics plays more of a role than most are willing to admit. It doesn’t jibe for anyone who has a control-freak nature. Yes, certainly one can behave in a manner to forestall certain inevitabilities by eating right, exercising.
For me, it’s been everything in moderation. I can’t keep up with This study says “eat _____” That study says “don’t eat ____”
I"m certainly intrigued by this study though.
that just makes to much sense to work !
even Gordo says lighten up on crapy foods ie fat, processed foodand eat fruits and vegy’s
what if it did matter ?
what if it made you faster ?
it is worth a try I guess
Thom ;=)
you really should read the book
it might help with your comments about the book
just a thought
Thom.
This isn’t necessarily directed at you, but your comment on genetics makes me play devil’s advocate.
I’m not going to say genetics doesn’t have an impact, but is genetics a causation, or coinciding correlation? People who live together for 18 years (you growing up with your parents for instance) will consume the same diet, and in many instances, as one begins adulthood, your type of diet has been set based upon the influences you’ve been exposed to since childhood. So, is it the diet you inherited, or the genes?
As an example of a correlation and not a causation: The tires on my bike suffer more wear as the snowfall in Siberia increases. Guess what, the snowfall in Siberia has absolutely nothing to do with the wear on my tires, it just so happens that as snow falls in Siberia, it also gets cold in the Midwest, and I elect to ride inside where my computrainer chews up the rubber more than the pavement does.
Some of the studies cited in The China Study look at populations that move from outside the US to inside the US and all of a sudden, their overall health status changes dramatically, which, within two generations, is most likely not enough time to make significant impacts on any genome sequence. Which is why I think the environment (i.e diet) has a much bigger impact than genetics.
I personally think, with NO evidence whatsoever, that the genetic thing is being blown out of proportion because there is a vested interest by some to produce products (i.e. really profitable drugs) to give to people with certain genetic makeups to hopefully prevent them from getting diseases.
RE: genetics
Take people from vastly different genetic backgrounds, feed them the same diet. You will see a wide variety of ages of death and types of diseases. Most of this difference is in the genes.
In the past 50 years, however, I think our diets have become so horrendous, that the effects of diet override (or expediate) genetic predispositions.
So I think you’re right now, but I think genetics ruled in our grandparents generation. So if you really want to see how good your genetics are- look at grandma and grandpa and their parents.
Jodi
Did anyone else read The China Study and decide you needed to make some changes in your diet. I’m about 3/4 through the book and the author presents some pretty convincing research that animal protein is at the very least related to some mean diseases. Now I’m not ready to give up meat and dairy completely, but I would like to make an effort to cut it down to a few servings a week. The problem is I have a pretty boring (although relatively healthy i think) diet and I’ll need to shake up my routine. For example, currently my lunches are composed of a tuna sandwich one or two days of the week and a turkey sandwich the other days. I also eat ground turkey three nights a week in a taco salad. I’m not sure what I would eat for breakfast. I like my cereal, and bananas with peanut butter everyday will get old fast I think. So I’m just wondering if any other folks out there have tried to move to a more plant-based diet. How was your transition and what exactly are some of the staples of your diet? Thanks for any insight.
Dan
Remember: everything is good for you, and everything is bad for you, depending on context. There are just as many good arguments to eat animal protein (or more importantely the foods containing decent amounts of it) the as there are not to eat it. Don’t get bailed up by propaganda. Regarding your last point: I haven’t done so, but know whose who have, for better and worse - if you want vego to work you need to be dedicated to getting all you need, finding adequate foods to replace the absent animal products, otherwise you’ll suffer for it.
All my grandparents have lived past 80, with two that exceeded 94, one is within 2 months of 95. I do have that much going for me, now I just have to not screw it up! Something about italian heritage and low cholesterol, which is advantageous to bacon producers since it doesn’t incent me to not consume it.
a tuna sandwich one or two days of the week
from the little i have read about tuna and mercury, i cut back my beloved tuna intake well below these levels…,
.
“Take people from vastly different genetic backgrounds, feed them the same diet. You will see a wide variety of ages of death and types of diseases. Most of this difference is in the genes.”
I don’t think that is 100% true
I f an Asian women moves to the USA the change in diet increases her chances of heart desease
genes do have a effect I will not deny that.
Thom
The weather in N NY was a few rain showers and 85
I still had a great bike ride
The discussion about genes having an impact or not is pretty useless.
Discussing whether genes have an impact on your health depending on your diet is along the lines of discussing whether changing lines of code will change the output for a given input…
Jodi,
I seem to recall that when you first read The China Study, that you were strongly impressed by the study results and the cancer link. As I recall, you also seemed to think that the other correlations (diabetes and CHD) were not quite as strong. Have you backed off from that? I kind of was relying on your perspective on this because I know you are a Med student and a PhD in medicine, which gives you exceptional credibility in my book especially when it comes to parcing through medical studies.
I have gone back and forth from vegan diet over the years. I find that it is very hard for me to maintain a vegan diet (although $4.00/ gallon on sale milk might get me back to it!). I am primarily a vegetarian who will eat some dairy and occasionally fish. I still love you pumpkin and black bean soup recipe!
Bernie
I am still quite impressed with the study, but also found the vegan lifestyle really difficult to do well while training for Ironman. I was eating a lot of protein, but when put in more sophisticated databases (by a nutritionist, not me), it became obvious that I was really deficient in quite a few essential amino acids. When I got anemic from a GI bleed, my doctor persuaded me to work some meat back into my diet. So I eat fish and organic chicken now.
I think the study is really interesting and is a great read for anyone. I’ve seen some conflicting studies on the merits of Whey protein that have me a bit confused, but I haven’t really sat down and read them carefully.
In all, I think a whole foods plant based diet is the healthiest diet a person can have if done carefully and properly to avoid deficiencies in vitamins and protein. It seems clear that it drastically reduces cancer risk. And not eating processed crap and sugar would pretty much take type II diabetes out of the picture. But it’s up to the individual how much they want to sacrifice for perfect health. I think the author was smart when he told people not to obsess over it. Try to cut out meat and dairy, but don’t make your life miserable.
I think the thing to do after you read a study like this (which is quite convincing), is to slowly change your lifestyle. Learn how to cook plant based meals, and slowly ease into a more meat-less life. I kind of did it cold turkey (no pun intended…), and I didn’t go into it with the base of knowledge necessary to do it right. I’ll work back to it now, but take my time.
Jodi
I’d recommend doing some more reading (more current).
It turns out that the recomendations on mercury exposure due to consumption of fish were borne on nothing but one toxic spill in Japan in the 1950s. Within the past few months the American College of ObGyn just revisited the recommendations and their source. Their “recommendaton” – eat more fish if you are pregnant. There has never, in the recorded medical experience of the US, been a case of fetal mercury poisioning, and further, that the brain function of the child is improved with an increase in the amount of fatty fish eaten by the mother.
Willing to lend me a copy? I don’t like to pay for things when I suspect they are more propaganda than good science…same reason I bought a Cervelo and not a Kuota 
**I’ve seen some conflicting studies on the merits of Whey protein that have me a bit confused, but I haven’t really sat down and read them carefully. **
I’m glad I’m not the only one and in good company too. Will you hurry up and get on it and then explain it to me?
** think the thing to do after you read a study like this (which is quite convincing), is to slowly change your lifestyle. Learn how to cook plant based meals, and slowly ease into a more meat-less life. I kind of did it cold turkey (no pun intended…), and I didn’t go into it with the base of knowledge necessary to do it right. I’ll work back to it now, but take my time.**
I wasn’t exactly “cold turkey.” I started by changing the way I looked at my plate. I went from saying that I had chicken breast with rice and steamed vegetables to saying that I had rice and steamed vegetables with some chicken. It wasn’t much but that placed the emphasis on the part of the meal that I wanted to be eating. My wife is a BSN. So my original knowledge base was what I learned from reading her nutrition textbooks. I really struggled with some of that stuff because I only have a rudimentary background in those kinds of sciences. But eventually I learned some of the concepts. My primary area of concern was cholesterol. I had a terribly low HDL (23) and I was looking for things that I could change to make that number get higher. My only redeeming grace was that my LDL was 104, so my ratio was adequate (though not ideal). One of the changes I thought would make a difference was a switch to a vegetarian diet and increase my exercise particularly the high intesity stuff.
It has worked somewhat. I have now learned that part of my condition is caused by genetics. My family is not very talkative about medical issues so many things come out over a period of years. My HDL has crept into the mid-30’s. Unfortuantely my LDL has increased as well. My ratio has stayed at about 5:1. Now they say I have borderline high cholesterol. I still don’t get it. Oh well.
Bernie
Cholesterol levels are HIGHLY genetic. That is not to say that they can’t be regulated by diet, however. For example, my total cholesterol was >210 and LDL>160 from age 18-22 (not an age that a person should have medicatable cholesterol levels). Docs threatened to take me off birth control and put me on statins. Not that there’s anything wrong with statins, I just think chronic drug treatment should only be used when all else fails. Especially in someone that young. So after I gained a ton of weight in medical shool I went on the Zone diet (40/30/30 carb/protein/fat). In about 5 months I lost 35 pounds. When I got my cholesterol checked my LDL had dropped to 100, with HDL of 80. Now I wasn’t overweight at age 18 when my LDL was 160 and I was fairly active. When my LDL was highest, I was actually not eating much meat at all. Just all junk- mostly pasta and boxed dinners. When my LDL was lowest, I was eating the most meat of my life. On the zone diet I had meat or egg whites with every meal, practically. Of course, this is definitely anectotal so take it for what it’s worth. But I think there is much more to cholesterol levels than simply the amount of cholesterol that goes in your mouth. I have a hunch that exremely high carbohydrate diets can accelerate cholesterol production in some people. But again, I haven’t sat down and checked the literature. And with my crazy life starting in a week, it’s doubtful I will have the opportunity.
Jodi