For what it is worth, the “flick” can also be a major contributor to elbow pain (tendonitis to be specific) - the swimmer’s equivalent to tennis elbow. All the more reason to remedy this stroke error - especially if you ever have elbow pain.
Doug, should the palm turn in gradually, say, starting at the waist, or abruptly at the hip?
Thanks, Bob Sigerson
Doug or anyone else,
Can you please clarify three items from your post for those of us less or in my case really less swimming literate?
“….early hand entry in line with your shoulders”
- Does this mean that when your had re-enters the water it does not extend as far out as possible in front of you with your arm fully extended?
By ” Finish your stroke at your hip with your palm facing backward”
- Does this mean you should not keep pulling when your hand reaches your hip? My masters coach emphasizes a complete stroke and to keep pulling until your thump touches your thigh? Also does palm facing backwards mean when your hand is at your hip in the pulling phase it should be perpendicular with the surface of the water and at this point you should stop pulling??
One more question please: “………… Release the stroke and allow your hand to face your body, palm inward”
- So this means when your hand exits the water you should have your hand vertical with your hand rotating towards your body after your hand passes by your hip??
Many thanks for posting the tips, and sorry to be so dense, its just that this is counter to what my previous masters couch has emphasized. I am not trying to criticize him, he was focusing more on my position and has helped me swim further then I ever thought I could.
Thanks,
Rockfish
Doug, I went to the gym pool yesterday evening and really thought about the flick thing you talked about. I was also thinking about some of the streamline aspects of TI. Somehow with the combination of the two, I think I had some sort of breakthrough. I really felt like I was gliding through the water without much effort-like there was no part of my stroke that was working against or causing drag for the other part. Swam 1500 in about 28 min and wasn’t really tired. Thanks
TriGuy,
Not only point your toes but kick up as well as down. Engage your hamstrings in the kick.
DougStern
Sig,
When you walk down the street where are you palms facing?
If your recover your stroke shoulder then elbow and finally hand, your hand will automatically turn inward. that is the natural and neutral hand position.
DougStern
Rockfish,
Your questions are always welcome.
Finishing your stroke at your hip is called “bagging the back end.” If you push water back and up past your hip you are also pushing your hip back into the water and causing an arcing motion of your recovery arm.
You arm should enter the water in line with your shoulder an opposite your extended arm’s elbow. From here your arm extends in the water. Make sure your start your stroke on the other side as soon as your arm touches the water. You will avoid dead spots and a complete catch up stroke.
Once your initiate your stroke the palm of your hand is facing toward your feet. YOur hand continues to face backward by adjusting your wrist position. Place both hands over head and touch palm to palm. Bring your arms to your chest with your hand still touching. Notice that your wrist gives as you do this movement. It is the same with your stroke.
DougStern
Tri Guy,
You are an improving athlete.
Keep questioning and keep learning.
DougStern
Not only point your toes but kick up as well as down. Engage your hamstrings in the kick.
Well, of course, although I think that I use my glutes more on the upkick for some reason. It’s hard to remember when I think about the motion.
On a similar stroke question, a lot has been talked about for hand motion underwater. The old rule was the “S-bend” method, but some of the “new theory” is that you should turn more on your side and use the lats more in a more straight-line pull. This would put your return side further upwards. I’ve tried both and my brain just automatically makes me do something more like the S-bend. I swim faster Thorpe-style (55 min IM) but I get tired faster, and end up slow on the 2nd half and 1:08 or so in training. I usually take it easy during the swim in races anyway (1:15-1:20), so I really don’t know which method is more efficient. I find it a lot easier to breathe and keep myself high in the water with the newer method, which is very useful for me! I can take a full breath of air and sink to 3-5’ under water…very distressing. 
What’s your take on the “old” vs “new” style (considering the “new” style was really talked about some 50 years ago but ignored.)
TriGuy42,
Old patterns die hard. The old S pattern was a misunderstanding of lift and drag forces. We all swim with an S pattern because it was in vogue for almost 30 years and very few people questioned it.
Stay with the new stroke. It is actually much easier to do and is faster. When ever you change a pattern there is a battle in your head and body over one habit and a new stroke. Keep conscious, observe your stroke and lead with your hips. It will keep your shoulders higher in the water and make it much easier to pull straight back.
DougStern
Palm in? As in pinky - not thumb - meets the water as I extend my arm? I’ve been doing that for a couple weeks to cut down on shoulder strain - am I doing this right?
Thanks for all your informative posts!
Power,
You are correct.
One of the major causes of shoulder problems is the arcing motion of the arm. Releasing your hand and turning your palm inward takes all the stress off your shoulder.
DougStern