Thanks for messing up my workout, Slowman :-)

Triathlon Forum
1

OK, so here’s the story:

Dan was kind enough to put the Endurance Corner team through the FIST bike fit workshop when he was recently out here attending the cycling symposium.

Now, in the recent past, I have had my suspicions that I was throwing away a lot of watts due to my, shall we say, less than optimal tri position. Relative to a lot of the guys that we have tested in our lab, I put out some decent power #'s, but when the rubber meets the road, not so much. So, needless to say, I was pretty excited at the prospect of going through the process with Dan to put me in a position where my watts would result in the kind of bike split that I deserve for the effort that I’m putting into the pedals. This is yet to be confirmed but I’m pretty excited to test out the new position on the road. My gut says that a bike PR is on the horizon.

What I did not expect, however, was the increase in power relative to heart rate/effort that the new position bought me. I have a standard workout that I do every Friday- Main Set:

20mins @ 160W 90-95rpm
15mins @ 180W 80-85rpm
10mins @ 200W 70-75rpm
5 mins @ 220W 60-65rpm
(x2)

I have been holding these power numbers for the past month with little change in HR. So, I thought it would be a good place to start to test out the new position with this relatively controlled workout. So, I get on the bike and get things rolling and immediately notice that my HR is 10-15bpm lower than it usually is. Thinking my HR monitor is on the fritz, I wet it down and try again. Same result. In fact, all through the set, this gap held.

So, I decide for the second set to go up 20W and STILL it’s not enough to elicit the HR zones that I am targeting for that workout. Also, on a workout that’s usually pretty solid by the last rep, I feel good enough to throw in 2x5mins @ 300W.

So, just wanted to say, thanks Dan for messing up this workout. But, I guess I’ll forgive you if I’m able to throw down an extra 20W for my IM split. :slight_smile:

Seriously, just wanted to say that for this sample of 1, the FIST principles work - BIG TIME.

Thanks Dan.

Alan Couzens, MS (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist
Endurance Corner Human Performance Lab
http://alancouzens.blogspot.com

2

could you post a before and after pic? Say hi to steinmetz!

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

3

Hey Dan,

I’ll see if I can get the infamous Matty Stein to take a few pics of me during this week’s indoor set.

Cheers,

A.

4

What kind of changes were made in your position?

More forward? higher, lower? seat position etc. It would be interesting to hear how your angles changed.

What do you think caused the increase in power @ the same heartrate?

5

I haven’t had a chance to throw the 2 pics on the computer for video analysis as of yet, but gut response is:

  • More forward
  • Counter-intuitively, more open hip angle. I say counterintuitively because relative to the BB I’m certainly more ‘bent over’ but the angle between my femur and pelvis feels more open.

A.

6

“Counter-intuitively, more open hip angle. I say counterintuitively because relative to the BB I’m certainly more ‘bent over’ but the angle between my femur and pelvis feels more open.”

Not to rant specifically at you, but I’ve never understood why people can’t understand this relationship. It’s fairly simple geometry. This also goes with the non-sense that someone must be any more flexible to ride with a lower position. If you’ve properly accounted for a rotation forward and lower around the bottom bracket, you can maintain the same hip angle. Some people can ride at the more acute end of the range of hip angles than others…so yes, some people may be a bit more flexible than others…but to say you have to be more flexible to ride in a low, forward position just doesn’t pass the sniff test…unless you don’t understand FIST or any other decent fitting protocol and are just whacking out a few spacers.

7

Hey TriBriGuy,

No problem cognitively understanding the relationship. I guess my point was that kinesthetically, there is something about bending over more (i.e. bringing the torso closer to parallel with the ground) that can leave one feeling more ‘closed’ when in fact, when the angles are measured, the opposite is true.

A.

8

“there is something about bending over more (i.e. bringing the torso closer to parallel with the ground) that can leave one feeling more ‘closed’ when in fact, when the angles are measured, the opposite is true.”

as you’ll remember during the fit session, you felt “closed” and yet, when we messed around with things we found you a position where you didn’t feel closed although that eventual position was representative of an even more acute hip angle.

the thing about alan (to those who weren’t there) is that he does not automatically take to a flat-back position. it was not a straightforward fit session. we had to cast about a bit before it all came together.

i might add that it was a real pleasure FISTing you guys. it’s very enjoyable for me when i spend time with folks that understand things that are beyond my comprehension, because it makes the next workshop i put on a better one. i would rather host a workshop with PTs, an orthopedic surgeon, and exercise physiologists than a lot of people sent by the shop solely to get the FIST window sticker — but, hey, i’m happy to host anybody :wink:

9

When I left the States for Germany one presidential election cycle ago, I had the pleasure of stopping at Dan’s for a FIST workshop on the way over. Fast forward to this presidential election year – even though I’m not getting any older (about 1 year older than the esteemed FISTer himself), I had a PR (just under 11:00) at IM Germany last year due mainly to a rockin’ PR bike split of around 5:36 on a Softride – steep, low, comfy, and with “classic” FIST geometry. I’ve also had a FIST client who has done very well at IM Germany and Kona with times around 9:30 thanks to a faster bike split. It’s a great process and like Dan says, I really enjoy FISTING triathletes who “get it.”

10

…it was a real pleasure FISTing you guys.

I think that must be another website you run. I’m sure that joke is already played out, but I can’t help it.

11

Fair enough, Alan and Dan.

I do have one question for Dan. Do you find that some people have a hard time with rotating the hips forward because of…umm…the shape of their 'tween…at least without changing to a saddle that might accomodate that issue like the Adamo? I would think that would have a real impact on someones ability to apply FIST. I’m imagining that might be the case for those who complain that they can’t get used to the “pain” of being low and forward…and they might rock the hips back…in effect…closing down the hip angle artificially…and rounding the back as a secondary result.

12

Makes sense to me tribriguy. I have a verrrrrrry rounded back :wink:

13

“at least without changing to a saddle that might accomodate that issue like the Adamo?”

i think the right saddle is paramount. if you can’t find the right saddle, you can’t find the right position, and you may as well be on a road race bike w/o aero bars at all, or with 73 degrees of seat angle and with aero bar armrests equal in elevation to the height of the saddle. absent a comfy saddle, you’re pretty much screwed if you want to take advantage of the optimization the aero position grants you.