Ok swim experts, after all the discussion on The Kick, I’d like to pose a question; what actually creates forward propulsion from the Kick? I realize this is a complex multi-faceted question with many variables. But, can it be reduced to a few key movements, such as flexibility, kick amplitude/force, body position? Naturally, all these issues are important, but what aspect of kicking actually propels the body forward. My Masters coach reminds me to kick from the thighs, so as not to over “bicycle” the leg and create turbulence, I get this, however, a narrow rapid kick isn’t really propelling me forward much. I’ve worked on ankle flexibility, with modest results. I also try and kick with the heels just below the water level. Not much improvement though. Any thoughts?
pdx, sorry don’t have an answer. Great question though…I’ve wondered that too. You see, after reading in this forum and others about the kick I have come to realize that it’s possible for the very best to kick much faster than I can even swim. “Kick from the hips” the say. But have ever seen pictures of the very fast? The knees are bent. And I just got a Sport Illustrated with a picture of Grant Hackett taken underwater. His legs are splayed plus bent knees. And he’s a premier distance swimmer…I don’t get it. Is the thrust coming just from the downstoke kick or can you derive any from “up” ? …Or do you relax the ankle on the upstroke and have no possible hope of propulsion on that part of the kick? Let’s make sure to bump this up to page one on Monday. All the swim experts spend their weekend in the pool.
Good points JDub. I agree we need to keep this post active in to Monday when we can pick the brains of the Fish. It is a classic conundrum!
My observations from my swimming. When I do a six-beat kick, with a really powerful 1 and 4 kick (i.e.: KICK-kick-kick-KICK-kick-kick), I zoom zoom. My arms aren’t doing much more than they usually do, but as soon as I turn on the kick, go from 2beat to 6 beat, it’s a good 15-20sec off my 50m (LCM). That first and fourth powerful kick (i.e.: kick timed with entry of opposite hand) really do propel me much more than the usual “I’m going a long way better conserve my energy” kick. The only difference my coach or I notice between my 2-beat and 6-beat kick, aside from just he # of kicks per cycle, is that first kick is very much from the hips, goes slightly deeper than the others (ok a fair amount actually, but not too far outside the “tube”), and is more of a whip motion than a dropping of the leg.
That whip motion is what I think provides the propulsion, like an tube fuill of air, if you roll a rolling pin along it, you’l push the air down to one end. I think I displace the water under my leg, starting at the hip and going all the way down to my feet, in a similar manner, I push it down and back, because of the whip-like motion.
Anyways, probably sounds crazy, but that’s what I’ve noticed. 
AP
The kick - Remember the concept - application of force. Unless you can point your toes as if your are a ballet dancer you will not go anywhere when you kick. No matter how big the engine is if, you cannot get the power to the wheels you will not move.
The knee bend it incidental to kicking. Your knees should be loose not still. Your knee bend is a function of how flexible your ankles are. In order to move forward you have to push water backward and down. Your knee band helps place your foot in the proper position. If you have hyperextended knees (legs bow backward at the knee) your legs will remains straighter and you will have less knee bend. Very fast swimmers almost always have hyperextended knees. The knee bend is a double edged sword. It places your feet in the proper position to move forward and it gets in the way of moving water increasing drag.
The power from the kick is derived from the upper thigh (both hamstring and quad). You kick both up and down gaining propulsion in both directions. Keep your toes pointed at all times so that you can lift water on the bottoms of your feet and back and down with he tops of your feet.
A great to practice your kicking is on your back. Start with your arms at your sides, look at the ceiling and pull our hips in. Initiate your kick by pressing down on the water with the bottoms of your feet. Keep your knees fairly straight while you kick down. Keep the kick narrow. On the up beat your knees will bend a bit. Feel the water on the tops of your feet. Make sure your knees never break the surface. If you are having difficulty keeping them underwater, place a kickboard by your knees and have your hands press gently on top of the board. Make sure your knees do not touch the board.
Even those who cannot move forward on their stomachs with a kickboard will be able to kick on their backs.
When you kick on your stomach think of kicking up instead of down. Keep the kick narrow.
When you are not in the water work on ankle and toe flexibility. All fast swimmer have tremendous ankle flexibility.
DougStern
Hi real swimmers!
Just a question from a self taught swimmer;
Does a six-beat kick really mean that you kick six times per arms stroke i.e right arm stroke - six kicks up and down, left arm stroke - six kicks up and down?
If so, how the hell do you manage? Thats really fast kicking in the water. I can hardly handle 4 kicks without slowing my stroke down ridiculously. ( for the record, I do my hundreds between 1.15 - 1.40 LCM depending on set length SR 27-37) If you do 100 m in 60 sec with a stroke rate of say 30 per 50m that would be 360 kicks per minute or 180 cycles. In water. That doesn’t feel real.
And If not, then what on earth is a two beat kick?
Johan???
P-John
Your Masters coach is somewhat correct in reminding you to kick from the thighs…BUT!
Everyone is different…not everybody has the same muscle cooordination…and strenght distribution…especially adult swimmers who have only a few years under their belt.
I have always felt that talking about swimming style and technique needs to be done at poolside …way too many variables exist.
As a life long swimmer…I aways tell people in the pool that ask me how can they swim like I do…"practice,practice,practice some more,and watch other good swimmers at the pool under water.
Learn the basic drills…and just put the time in.
The saying of "Feeling-clean and Tall"in the water only happens when you’ve done the laps…year in year out…No short-cuts…no other way.
As you build your ability, issues such as 2 or 6 beat kicks become moot-as only you will know what works for you.
One day you’ll get in the water and power out 4000 yds like a dolphin .
I know this doesn’t answer your question, but I don’t of anyone yet who has not become a good swimmer by putting in the time.
In MY case- my kicking just helps my body positioning…I get most of my propulsion from my stroke thrust and catch.
Body rotation is key in propulsion…pretend you’re a Torpedo cutting a clean narrow path thru the water.
Since most of my swims are IM and 1/2IM distances…I’ve realized that
easy kicking gets me on the bike feeling stronger and w/ a lower HR.
Lundin,
The six beat kick is 6 kicks per stroke cycle. Think of a waltz pattern of 1-2-3-1-2-3. Your arms will fall into the pattern of your kick. You can emphasize each 1 beat and demphasize the 2-3 and you have what is called an “asymetrical kick.” Which is more of a waltz. Every 1 beat sends an arm on that side forward and opens the opposite hip.
A 2 beat kick is two kicks per arm cycle. It like the asymetrical without the 2-3 kick in each cycle.
DougStern
So, that means i’m at the time actually performing a 4-beat kick (2 kicks per arm). That solves my 6-beat mystery.
But that makes a 2-beat seem really strange to me. When I started swimming two years ago what naturally came to me was a kind of unstructured 6-beat. But since learning that most triathletes used somerthing called a 2-beat I worked on that til it felt natural. Now that it does I learn that it’s really a 4-beat. Yeah whatever.
Sorry about straying off topic and thanks for the answer.
Spring is here, tomorrow I might pick a hole in the ice and go for an early season outdoor swim. 4-beat.
re: " So, that means i’m at the time actually performing a 4-beat kick (2 kicks per arm)." Careful…I’m not a coach, but what works for me is three kicks per armstroke.
Feet: L-R-L-R-L-R repeat
Arms R…L…
and thus six beats per arm cycle. timing between the feet and arms isn’t necessarily right on top of each other but you get the drift. Coaches?
So you can really get some thrust from the bottom side of your foot. Amazing.
Good question, my background is in competitive swimming and I also did some coaching for a few years. I’ll try and answer the question as best as I can. First, I think that the kick-board is the worst invention every. If I could, I would toss all the kick-boards from our natatorium. Second, I think that the kick is mainly to balance body position and your swim stroke. The kick helps keep your hips and butt up high in the water and helps with rotating your body from side to side. Kick as a means of forward propulsion might come into play in sprint races, 200 yards or less. Third, to help develop your kick and body position, always kick on your side. As a drill you can do 25 kick on your right (arm out like superman), 25 left, 25 catch-up, and 25 swim. That is my favorite drill. Hope this helps.
World class swimmers kick agressively the entire 1500M because the kick helps drive their arms and aids in propulsion.
Kicking with a board provides the only time that swimmers can interact during a workout. It also overloads the legs.
I thoroughly enjoy kicking and there is plenty of room for those who do not.
I have been coaching for 42 years and a masters swimmer for 30.
DougStern
OK… I agree that world-class swimmers kick aggressively and that this definitely aids in propulsion. I also think that there is room for kicking in any swim workout. However, the world-class swimmer probably swims 20 hours a week and has his/her stroke perfected. The main issue with most beginning swimmers is body position. If your body position and stroke are weak, a strong kick will probably not overcome that. Kicking without a kickboard aids in developing a better body position. Also, a lot of triathletes probably swim fewer than 20 hours and do it alone, hence chatting with fellow swimmers is probably not as important. Therefore I would recommend kicking with a kickboard only after your stroke has been refined or you are looking to break up a long set. Beginner swimmers should make limited use of a kickboard if possible. Kicking on your side or back will still overload the legs but also help with body position.
What about using fins in drills?
I like kicking because it’s one thing I can do for a long, long time. I think fins (stiff ones) are great as they keep you from kicking way out of line. The downside is you take them off and WOW kicking feels slow.
My personal opiniuon is that there are aspects of swimming propulsion that are gaps in our knowldge. It’s pretty obvious that we get propulsion from our kick. I don’t think we really know how. I mean in a fluid mechanics sort of way there are things unexpliained.
So there is definitely more to your question than you first suppose.
But basically, you need to move water backwards to some degree. You can really onoly do this by getting some of the top of your foot surface facing backwards. Not necessarily totally backward but an angle toward the back will do. Then moving your foot down through the water will force water backward.
as Doug points out, you can get the foot facing backward with ankle flexion or knee flexion.
Aztec, I used you favorite drill this weekend. After I drown for a few minutes, I think I got the hang of it. Just swimming and concentrating on keeping my head down was a help. If I really think about it, I can feel my kick start to flutter around the surface so I must be getting closer to a proper position. Thanks again. I’m shooting for under 30 minutes in the Wildflower. I guess with wetsuit, that means 27 minutes.