Extensive experience in P/P/Public schools and systems. As a student, teacher, parent, board member. Both elementary and secondary. Gen.Ed./ Sp.Ed.
I am a recently retired elementary and middle school teacher in PA. in a small city school system with a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds and a very diverse mix of students. The 2 year associates idea is not something I can agree with. My college required all education majors to double major to graduate. So I graduated with a B.A. in Clinical Psychology as well as an elementary education and middle school (ELA and Social Studies) certifications. In PA all public school teachers must earn a Masters Degree within a certain number of years to remain employed or at least in my school district and my wifeâs. There was talk of giving all student teachers a $10,000 check from the state to cover living expenses. I do not know if it passed. Most of the students I went to school with moved back home to complete their student teaching semester. That is not always a possibility given the location of the school and at other schools (like Penn State) students donât really have a choice and have to move back home because there are not enough school districts in that area of PA. PSU is in the geographical center of the state and its mostly mountains and farmland for mile around it.
My experience with young teachers the last 5 years of my career was mostly negative. They are not as prepared and colleges seem to have skipped over how to really use classroom management skills. In my experience, the overall lack of knowledge contributes to this as most studentâs respect for teachers increases when they see how much knowledge the teacher possesses and how they can use it to make class more interesting and to answer higher level questions. Many of the young teachers do not want advice, even from their mentors. Many do not want to do all the things young teachers have always doe to supplement their incomes by coaching, running clubs, and intramural. Being a 1st to 5th year teacher and being the last one to arrive and the first one to leave school would have never happened 15 years ago. Now it is the norm.
There has been too much emphasis on computer programs that assess students on a weekly basis to collect data, especially in math. The students do not like it and in my opinion it contributes to underdeveloped social skills and a lack of creativity. This has bled over to the classrooms where a large chunk of classroom time is spent doing math on a computer. If a student doesnât understand what to do watch the tutorial video. The reading and English program is also based on a computer program. We used to read 4-6 novels a year and dozens of short stories in 8th grade. Now they read 1 or 2. Our proficient and advanced scores in reading went from 93% in 2010 to under 70% in 2019.
Something has to be done to recruit and train more and better teachers. I have never seen morale amongst educators as low as it currently is. The trend in my district to skip real consequences for poor behavior has led to much worse behavior. The lack of funding for alternative schools and classrooms to help students with emotional needs, behavioral issues, and academic support has completely changed the district. No students fail in 1st through 8th grade no matter what. A student could have a zero in all academic classes and still move on. It makes no sense to me and is causing even more issues at the high school level in that students are sacked that the have to take a high school course over until they pass or no credits can be given.
It would be nice for teachers to get paid more, but none of my friends and I got into the profession thinking we would make much money. It was and still can be an amazing job. I was able to teach thousands of students and coach hundreds all while never missing my own kidâs events and sports.
When administrations start truly backing teachers through holding students accountable and making them responsible for completing all work the school environment will change and I think more college students will consider a career in education. Most veteran teachers are tired of going to inservice to be lectured on the array of excuses for why students canât be responsible or behave. We know what used to work. Kids need structure and daily guidance especially when they are 13-15. I donât think sending in teachers with only two years of training and 1 year in the classroom is going to solve the real problems.
Sorry for the rant.
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Retired school administrator here. There is a teacher shortage because the pay does not equal the amount of work and BS that todayâs teachers face. For many, many parents, school is the babysitter they donât have to pay out of their own pocket. Teaching is hard work, but add in the social aspects of cramming 20+ kids who are still learning societal norms, not to mention the hormones/smells/wonkiness of adolescents, and you get a daily work environment that isâŚchallenging. Think of it this way: day care only needs to handle classroom management. Teachers do that plus are expected to cram knowledge into those brain housing units too, from students who donât want to be there. Itâs a tough job.
There is a teacher lifecycle (I can pull the research if needed) that basically goes like this: Yrs 1-3: Teacher is learning classroom management and basic teaching skills. The teacher is just trying to keep the room from erupting into chaos, while figuring out what teaching strategies actually work. Sure they have summers off, but most go find summer jobs. One of the best roofing companies in my area was formed and staffed by a bunch of teachers who started it as a summer gig when they were just starting out as teachers.
Yrs 4-7: Teachers either figure out "teaching is for meâ and soldier on, or they bail on the industry. We lose sooooo many teachers at this stage. Teachers feel like they have three bosses: principal, parents, and district higher-ups. It becomes exhausting, especially when for the nth time that week kiddo x acts up, building principal does nothing, and parent goes bonkers and lights up the text and email commo channels. Districts that want to keep these teachers have to consistently support and show they care about staff. Otherwise, teachers at this level either leave for another district, or leave the industry altogether. Theyâre still in their 20s, so career change is not as daunting.
Years 8-15: this is the sweet spot. The teachers have gone all in and are/have mastered both their teaching and classroom management skills. Many have earned Masters degrees, as doing so typically gives them a pay bump, plus many states have continuing ed requirements. When I was hiring, these were the folks I wanted to hire.
Years 16-23: This is when the teacherâs family is established and the kids are in school themselves. This means work-life balance becomes a bigger problem, though the summers off are more appreciated. However, burnout can creep in if they are working in a district with either A) multiple curriculum changes as the district chases the next greatest thing or B) the district chooses to consistently back parents over teachers whenever student issues arise.
Years 24-30: Here we seemed to get either rockstar teachers, totally committed and highly respected by peers, administrators, and the community, or we get teachers who are retired in place waiting for that day they can get off the merry-go-round. The latter figure their tenure gives them protection and they no longer have the drive/will/feeling of accomplishment, so they simply go through the motions.
Back to the OP original question, what do I think of Tennesseeâs proposal? I think it sucks. Sure, you can put an AA babysitter in the classroom, but that same politician will next cry about the poor test scores and âwhy arenât our kids doing betterâ? If you want quality instruction, you need a safe environment, support from district leadership, quality instructional materials, and a solid, well-trained instructor.
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Thank you for your perspective.
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Very insightful. Thank you.
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Interesting to hear directly âfrom the trenchesâ Enjoy your retirements. But your retirements are a loss for your students.
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Thank you @kentcart and to you as well. You absolutely nailed the career progression as I onserved it. I was lucky to have worked under a few great principals and assistant principals. You sound like you were a fantastic principal.
That doesnât really answer my question. I have all those things too, with the exception of board member. My question is more, if you believe that to be the case, what is it about P/P that makes it so? If you have the experience you claim you have, and I certainly have no reason to doubt it, youâll understand that P/P schools have an advantage that public schools donât have.
I should have said âfewer.â
I went to Catholic School and my fellow retired teacher close friend substitutes at the same K-8 school twice a week. There is a real code of conduct with a demerit system. Students can be expelled. Because if this classroom management is not an issue. That gives an entire class period that can be dedicated to instruction and student work.
Neither of these things consistently happen in the public schools I taught in unless the student brings a weapon to school or seriously injures another student or teacher. If a faculty member is hit the student is usually transferred to another school. In my last 5 years teaching 4 teachers and the principal were hit and two teachers had significant injuries breaking up fights. And fights happen on a weekly basis. And teachers can be sued if a student is injured while a teacher is breaking up the fight. I doubt any of this is happening at the private schools in my area.
I taught 5 classes a day, another class on successful habits, and another extension of the curriculum class or ramp up reading class depending on the year and the data. Two of my core classes were always filled with major behavioral issues. The other three only had a few major problems. I was good at class management and I still struggled my last two years. As a result, 20-50% of those classes were wasted dealing with issues and calming things down, especially the classes after lunch.
I donât have any real data to sight but the local newspaper and billboards are often showing ads for the catholic high schools and sighting 90% plus of their senior classes going to college. The high school that my middle school feeds does send a lot of students to college but also has over a 25% drop out rate.
I hope that helped a little.
Okay, weâre getting closer to my point⌠on a macro level, why might this be the case?
And there it is⌠and, by the way, thatâs only one of the reasons a child might be moved from P/P back to public school. I know of three kids right off the top of my head that had to leave private schools because of learning disabilities that they couldnât support. Thatâs not even to mention kids that either couldnât get into a private school or whose parents donât have the resources. This whole thread is about Tennessee trying to hire public school teachers. Comparing what happens in private schools isnât really helpful, IMO. Thereâs a whole extra set of challenges that a public school teacher has to deal with when compared to private schools as a whole.
Well, also consider that the governor of Tennessee and his cronies are also in the meantime gutting public school funds and diverting it to for-profit charter schools (that they control).
Lee had asked Arnn to help establish 50 to 100 of the taxpayer-funded schools across the state as part of his push for âinformed patriotismâ in schools.
Controversy erupted three weeks ago when NewsChannel 5 Investigates aired hidden camera video showing Hillsdale president Larry Arrn trashing public teachers at a private reception with Lee, claiming education degrees are âeasyâ because âyou donât have to know anythingâ and arguing you donât need experts teaching children, that âanybody can do it.â
âFor decades, Hillsdale College has been the standard bearer in quality curriculum and the responsibility of preserving American liberty,â Lee said at the time.
âI believe their efforts are a good fit for Tennessee, and we are formalizing a partnership with Hillsdale to expand their approach to civics education and K-12 education.â
Yet, applications by the Hillsdale-affiliated American Classical Academy were rejected in three separate votes over the past week.
Among the criticisms cited by the three school boards has been Hillsdaleâs plans to seek waivers against state requirements setting minimum standards for teachers.
âThey do not and did not intend to hire licensed teachers, licensed principals,â Rutherford County school board member Sheila Bratton said.
âThey did not intend to do any kind of evaluations using the team evaluation that we use here in Tennessee.â
Gov. Bill Lee is pushing for a major revision to Tennessee charter school law to create ways for operators to bypass their local elected school boards and apply directly to a state commission for authorization.
A long time ago, in a gap year before grad school, I had a stint teaching at a HS military academy. At that school, a good percentage of kids were enrolled there (instead of public school) because of disciplinary problems. Their parentâs felt a military academy would straighten them out. The main other reason kidsâ were there was because they came from families with generations of military traditions and it was âin the bloodâ. It made for some interesting classroom dynamics.
Now many years later, I much prefer the teaching I currently do (and may do more, now that Iâm corporate retired). I teach grad students at a very selective school/program. My students have no shortage of motivation, or bad behavior, or other issues.
Itâs sooooo much better when the focus is on the content / knowledge.
I think that plan sounds like a pretty bad idea.
I have had several student teachers and it is not likely I will take anymore (teacher since 1995). The student teacher I had last Fall did not have basic knowledge of historical facts. When teaching about the Lewis and Clark Expedition a student asked how they found their way. She shurgged and said they had a map I guess. This is in a second grade classroom. She taught the wrong pronunciation of vocabulary words in social studies and science. For instance when talking about Plymouth she pronounced it Pli(long i) mouth (as in the body part). There were a lot of other issues but basically she had 3.5 years of classes, came to me with the expectation of taking over my classroom for 10 weeks and was completely unprepared. She was a social media teacher, more worried about creating the latest teacher trend she saw on TikTok while ignoring the curriculum guides.
I recently had a therapist say sheâs surprised how often when she goes into the classroom, itâs just kids working on computers and the teacher on their phone.
Holy hell! What state do you live in?
It has gotten so bad that many teachers will not take student teachers anymore, which is crazy because it is essential to the profession.
My wife is an elementary special education teacher. Her last student teacher was 9 years ago. She came to school late. She was disinterested in taking any advice. She came unprepared with no lesson plans multiple times. After the 3rd time my wife was no longer nice about it. The student teacherâs mother called the college to complain about how my wife was treating her daughter.
My last student teacher did not want to become a teacher. She wanted to raise her families horses. I would not allow her to teach my top two classes because we were starting a unit on Fahrenheit 451. She would have been doing the kids a disservice. I would have thought that this would have been sufficient cause for her to have to redo her experience at another school because she was completely unprepared. Nope. She was passed by her college.
In PT the clinical instructor is the one who determines the grade, although I suppose the college could decide to ignore it and give a different grade.
That makes sense. In education the cooperating teacher gives weekly feedback and a final evaluation. We do not give a grade, the college does.