Talk me out of an electric car

The Coffee Shop
1

My trusty old Toyota finally died and I’m in the market for new vehicle.

I had no intention of even looking at electric or even hybrids due to the cost but while I was looking I cam across the Nissan Leaf. The one I came across had an MSRP of ~29K and they are selling it for ~25K and that is before rebates. Thanks to you fine tax payers it looks to me like I can get ~7500 from federal in the form of a tax credit and 10% of MSRP from the state which would be another $2900. This of course lowers the effective cost of the car, to me of course, to ~15K…which is a pretty good deal ofr a new electric vehicle.

That being said I’m still on the fence for a couple of reasons.

First the only reason I’m even contemplating an EV is because this vehicle would be our second car and largely used as a “Run about”. I’d drive the kid to school, go to work, pick the kid up, go home. etc. My typically daily mileage is in the 25-30 mile range well below even the worst 50 mile on full charge estimates for the vehicle. While I’m a bit concerned about range I really don’t see this as a major issue as I can charge at work all day and at home all night.

The car comes with a standard 110V charging station, however charging times are really high, 20 hours for a full charge. Now that may not be a major issue as I mentioned about I really only drive maybe an hour a day and can be charging the rest of the time. That being said however having the 220 charging would be nice and cut charge times down to 7 hours for a full charge.

Now comes the problems.

  1. The car I’m looking at has only the 3.3KW on board charging station. I could do the 220/240 40 amp charge but not the level II fast charge, which is what most of the public charging systems are…I think. I can’t seem to find information out on whether you can charge at these stations with the 3.3KW charger and it will be stepped down or not.

  2. I don’t have 220 in my garage. If I wanted to put a 220/240 charger near the car I’d have to trench, run wire, install a box etc. I’m probably looking at a couple grand for that and then another grand or so for the 220 charging station. I could probably live with the 110 charger, but my guess is that the 220/240 will be necessary sooner or later…say when I forget to plug in and remember at 6 AM and I have to leave at 8 :slight_smile:

  3. The information on the rebates are REALLY sketchy. My accountant was pretty much worthless on this one. I’ve read a whole bunch of things on their expiration, how and what it takes to take full advantage etc. I’d be really pissed if I bought the car then found out all the rebates had expired. Are there any “Laymen” sites that cover all this, deadlines, etc?

I’d love to never have to buy gas again…especially if I can make all you pay for it :slight_smile:

~Matt

2

Get a rickshaw and Willie Wonka the shit out of it.
It will get you healthier and build character for your kids.

How often do you have to switch out the batteries for
the leaf and how much do those run?

http://www.bikingindallas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/anthropologie-rickshaw-bicycle.jpg

3
  1. The information on the rebates are REALLY sketchy. My accountant was pretty much worthless on this one. I’ve read a whole bunch of things on their expiration, how and what it takes to take full advantage etc. I’d be really pissed if I bought the car then found out all the rebates had expired. Are there any “Laymen” sites that cover all this, deadlines, etc?

~Matt

http://www.plugincars.com/federal-and-local-incentives-plug-hybrids-and-electric-cars.html

With that particular vehicle, it looks like your federal tax credit would be $2500, $7500 is the max and it is only for cars with 16kWh batteries. Also, appears there is some sort of Illinois state rebate http://www.illinoisgreenfleets.org/rebates/, but you are probably not going to get as much as you think.

We’d totally do it as a 2nd vehicle because both are daily commutes are <10 miles, but we aren’t due for a new vehicle for at least 5yrs and commuting by bike (when it isn’t snowing) beats electricity.

4

Most public charging is standard 220V NOT fast charging.

Yes having 220 charging at home is nice. Chargers run $500 - $1000. Some Electric companies still have rebates available check with them.

Federal one is Credit. only good up to what you pay in Federal Income tax that year. So if your yearly federal income taxes are less than $7500 (leaf has a smaller battery) you wont get the full amount (unless you lease).

Not sure what state your in. EV range can Significantly drop in cold weather.

Personally I love my Volt.

5

We did a two year lease on a Nissan leaf and loved it. Wife was driving an Expedition and the cost of gas for her to rarely leave our town was more than the monthly payment.

She loved it. The Leaf truly is an errand car. The range is realistically 80 miles so driving it needs to be deliberate and intentional. We are lucky to live in an area with numerous charging stations. So even when we need to go across town it isn’t a big deal so long as we plan to charge.

We just returned it last month and I am trying to convince her to buy one. It worked perfect for us. Grocery stores, kids to school, YMCA, lunch/dinner etc were all gas free. It was really nice.

6

I was in Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and a friend of mine had a Tesla and it completely changed my mind on electric cars. That thing is a rocket! He said the cost of electricity compared to gas was like paying 50 cents for a gallon of gas.

7

Do you live in the Midwest? Or anyplace where there is a winter where it actually snows/gets cold? If so I’d recommend against a fully electric vehicle. One of my Wife’s clients chose a Leaf (in MN) for a company vehicle since she doesn’t drive so much and wanted to get something environmentally friendly. She regretted it because in the winter the heating system saps so much power the driving range is significantly reduced. You have to choose to between being warm or having enough juice to make your round trip. Something else to consider.

I’d personally get a Diesel as those engines are reliable and you typically get double the mileage of a gasoline engine. But that is what I’d do if I could find a nice reasonably priced AWD diesel vehicle (so far the offerings currently out there aren’t what I would consider reasonably priced).

8

I’d personally get a Diesel as those engines are reliable and you typically get double the mileage of a gasoline engine. But that is what I’d do if I could find a nice reasonably priced AWD diesel vehicle (so far the offerings currently out there aren’t what I would consider reasonably priced).

Diesels are marginally more efficient than gas for short trips where you do not get up to operating temperature. EVs are not as efficient in cold weather, but still fit the bill because it seems he’d never be driving it very far without charging. If he can make the numbers work, IMO it would be a much better choice than diesel. Also, doesn’t sound like he is in the market for a BMW or MB, which I believe are the only AWD diesel options. Diesels are a great choice when you are going to be driving a lot (or towing something), especially highway miles, otherwise the initial premium and cost of fuel doesn’t work.

9

With that particular vehicle, it looks like your federal tax credit would be $2500, $7500 is the max and it is only for cars with 16kWh batteries.

From the page you linked;

Buyers of plug-in hybrids and electric cars benefit from a tax credit of $2,500 to $7,500, depending on the size of the battery in the car. On the low end of the spectrum, cars with 4 kWh battery packs will qualify for a $2,500 tax credit. The credit maxes out at $7,500 for cars with a 16 kWh battery pack, like the Chevy Volt. The credits were provided as part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, otherwise known as the “stimulus bill.” The incentive begins phasing out after an automaker sells 200,000 vehicles that are eligible for the credit.

From wiki;

The 24 kWh battery pack consists of 48 modules and each module contains four cells, a total of 192 cells, and is assembled by Automotive Energy Supply Corporation (AESC) – a joint venture between Nissan, NEC and NEC Energy Devices, at Zama, Japan

If I’m reading both of those correctly then the Leaf has a larger then “Max” size and should be eligible for the full credit, not the 2500$. What is concerning to me is the “Total cars sold”. Everything I’ve read has the number of Leafs WELL below the 200K mark in the US though.

The Illinois link you gave has a sub link that I’ve already looked at. Again if I read this correctly;

For a new alternate fuel vehicle that does not have a conventional make and model counterpart, but does have an increased cost due to the alternate fuel engine/motor and fuel system versus a comparable conventional engine/motor, the amount of the rebate is 10 percent of the base retail price of the vehicle as reflected on the MSRP (“base MSRP”), not including add-on equipment options, up to $4,000. At the current time, the only vehicles in which the 10 percent of the base MSRP is used to establish the rebate amount are electric vehicles.

This means that the Leaf does not have an conventional comparable model so then I should get an additional 10% of MSRP. Under the same program they have rebates, I believe up to 50%, for charging stations as well.

~Matt

10

She regretted it because in the winter the heating system saps so much power the driving range is significantly reduced. You have to choose to between being warm or having enough juice to make your round trip. Something else to consider.

As I said in my OP the lowest I’ve seen for the Leaf and that is in cold weather is ~50 miles. Again that is still considerably below my typical daily commute.

But that is what I’d do if I could find a nice reasonably priced AWD diesel vehicle (so far the offerings currently out there aren’t what I would consider reasonably priced).

I think this also depends on where the car is being used and make of the car. Seems like a lot of the high mileage EU diesals are not allowed into the US for various emission reasons. That said I agree, not a whole lot out there for diesel and the only reason I’m even entertain the Leaf is because if I can get the rebates it makes it a very reasonably priced vehicle, lower then gasoline versions of similar makes. Of course all those nice tax payers are footing the bill.

~Matt** **

11

Yes having 220 charging at home is nice.

I may install one at work since it would be way easier to do…with 880 coming into the building and 440/220 bus bars everywhere. I might have to create an EV parking spot downstairs.

Chargers run $500 - $1000. Some Electric companies still have rebates available check with them.

I’ll have to look into the electric company to see what they have available. We are essentially getting all the lights in our entire building replaced with the new higher effeciency builds and fixtures for free, labor and all, due to one of those programs…again I’m sure the tax payers are footing the real bill.

I do believe my state has a program for the charging stations as well but not sure if home stations qualify.

Stations purchased and installed on or after August 29, 2013 are eligible to apply for the Fall 2014 funding cycle of the EV Infrastructure Rebate Program.

The following types of stations are eligible:

Hardwired Level 1 (120 V AC) models with SAE J1772 cord connectors;Level 2 (208-240V AC) models with SAE J1772 cord connectors; andDC fast charging (DCFC) models with SAE J1772 combo and/or CHAdeMO cord connectors.* *
Tesla charging stations do not have a SAE J1772 cord connection and are not eligible for a rebate. Installation of a 120V or 240V outlet on its own (i.e., without an eligible charging station) is not eligible for a rebate.

*Rebates cover 50% of equipment and installation (materials and labor) costs up to the following caps: *

$3,750 per networked single station (stations that have a cellular or internet connection);$3,000 per non-networked single station;$7,500 per networked dual station;$6,000 per non-networked dual station;$15,000 per networked DCFC station; and*$12,500 per non-networked DCFC station.*

So if your yearly federal income taxes are less than $2500 (leaf has a smaller battery) you wont get the full amount (unless you lease).

Leaf has a 24KwH battery and the Volt has a 16KwH battery.

only good up to what you pay in Federal Income tax that year.

Yeah I talked to the accountant on that and looking at past years he believes we would be on the cusp of being able to realize the entire $7500 rebate. Might not be able to take it all. My comment to him was that I felt this approach was odd as it pretty much means that poor people could not get the same benefit from buying the vehicle as rich people. That seemed like and odd approach to try and get this vehicle into the hands of the masses.

Personally I love my Volt.

From what I’ve seen though it’s another 5-8K more then the Leaf, which makes sense since it has an engine as well. Puts it outside of what I want to spend on a car.

~Matt

12

I’d personally get a Diesel as those engines are reliable and you typically get double the mileage of a gasoline engine. But that is what I’d do if I could find a nice reasonably priced AWD diesel vehicle (so far the offerings currently out there aren’t what I would consider reasonably priced).

Diesels are marginally more efficient than gas for short trips where you do not get up to operating temperature. EVs are not as efficient in cold weather, but still fit the bill because it seems he’d never be driving it very far without charging. If he can make the numbers work, IMO it would be a much better choice than diesel. Also, doesn’t sound like he is in the market for a BMW or MB, which I believe are the only AWD diesel options. Diesels are a great choice when you are going to be driving a lot (or towing something), especially highway miles, otherwise the initial premium and cost of fuel doesn’t work.

There are some Audi offerings (Q7 TDI and an A6 TDI) both of which are way more than I’m willing to spend on a car - unless I magically got a raise or a new job for double my current salary…not likely to happen right now unfortunately :frowning:

I am waiting for the day other car manufacturers bring over their Diesel offerings. Heck, Lexus and Subaru have diesel cars that are offered in Europe but not here. A VW TDI isn’t bad but doesn’t offer the AWD I want. But, I am a car guy and a errand car like a Leaf is not my cup of tea (I’d buy a Tesla though if I could/would be willing to drop the coin on it). I want something with a decent handling and power/torque…which a Leaf isn’t exactly made for that.

To the OP, maybe try renting one for a week or two during the winter months to see if it works for you before committing to buy?

13

That’s cute Matt.

14

That’s cute Matt

I’ll post it in the “Post the Cute” thread if I end up getting one. If nothing else I’m a tight ass and I will put up with nearly any level of humiliation to save a buck :slight_smile:

The idea of never having to spend a dime at the gas station is appealing to those of that have the first penny we ever made…although it now looks like copper wire as it has been stretched further and further every time someone has tried to take it from us.

~Matt

15

o you live in the Midwest? Or anyplace where there is a winter where it actually snows/gets cold? If so I’d recommend against a fully electric vehicle.

Here’s Nissans testing under different conditions. Winter stop and go 14F still gets 62 miles. I’ve seen others at -10F at around 50 or so. I don’t do a whole lot of “Stop and go” so I suspect worse case conditions I would see would be really cold days of 50-60 miles on a full charge. Again, ~2X of what my daily round trip commute is.

Interesting enough one of things that is recommended for battery life is to allow the battery to go sub 80% before charging. My goal would be to be constantly topping it off. If I dropped the kids off at school and went to work I’d have only drove ~15-20 miles. Even under worse case conditions I would still be at 60% fully charged rather then 20% recommended before charge.

Summary of the Nissan’s results using EPA L4 test cycle
operating the 2011 Leaf under different real-world scenarios Driving
condition Speed Temperature Total Drive
Duration Range Air
conditioner mph km/h °F °C mi km Cruising (ideal condition) 38 61 68 20 3 hr 38 min 138 222 Off City traffic 24 39 77 25 4 hr 23 min 105 169 Off Highway 55 89 95 35 1 hr 16 min 70 110 In use Winter, stop-and-go traffic 15 24 14 −10 4 hr 08 min 62 100 Heater on Heavy stop-and-go traffic 6 10 86 30 7 hr 50 min 47 76 In use EPA five-cycle tests n.a. 73 117 Varying

16

Go for it. And if you hit the lottery get the Tesla.

17

I was in Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and a friend of mine had a Tesla and it completely changed my mind on electric cars. That thing is a rocket! He said the cost of electricity compared to gas was like paying 50 cents for a gallon of gas.

https://i.imgflip.com/ftt24.jpg

18

I was in Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and a friend of mine had a Tesla and it completely changed my mind on electric cars. That thing is a rocket! He said the cost of electricity compared to gas was like paying 50 cents for a gallon of gas.

https://i.imgflip.com/ftt24.jpg

Even considering the time value of money, it’s a break even proposition in in 37.5 years.

19

Good summary of the Tax credit, yes looks like a Leaf qualifies for the full amount.

I was able to lease a Volt, for $210 a month. After 1 year of ownership I calculated my expenses. I ended up paying about $30 a month to drive it over my previous car which was a stripped 2006 Pontiac vibe, with leaking gas tank. Over all pretty good deal. Lease runs out in 2 yrs. Hope I can get a similiar deal on the next gen volt that will be out then, if not back to older used cars for me.

20

How would you be able to live yourself and face the lavender room after taking a big fat handout from Uncle Sam to buy an electric car?
It is simply a matter of self respect;)