OK. I have posted here a couple of times bragging about my son. I have really appreciated all the nice comments. I am hoping that some of you kind folks might be able to help me help him take it to the next level.
Some background on my son. He is almost 16. He is about 5’ 8" with some potential for growth…although it seems unlikely he will go over 6 foot. He weighs about 150 pounds. Unfortunately he has my body frame with alot of muscle mass, but he is not fat by any means.
He has been swimming year round for 2 years now, and his coach told him to get out of the water for a couple of months. So he is going to join the track team and start swimming club again this summer. Also, the team is going to attend a week long intensive camp at U of M this summer.
He seems to be a decent breaststroker and has some talent at distance free.
So what else is there? Does anyone recommend some sort of a home dryland program? I am not sure if a Vasa-trainer is something I can get…but I know the Halo thing is affordable and local.
The only other thing I have thought is to send him to Club Wolverine this summer. It is pretty expensive, and the team is pretty snobbish. One of the guys from the team swam with them last summer and he thought that it wasn’t worth it. If you were not elite, you only got the workouts with no individual coaching.
IF he is not burned out, and wants to keep some kind of training, then a good overall weight program would be a good thing, especially for breastrokers. You don’t need an expensive swim bench, as I have said before, I bought two of those incline workout machines that Cuck Norris schleps on late night TV, and for about 10 to 20 bucks… Check Ebay, garage sales, and all the usual places. They work great for a swim bench, I used it a lot when I only had the endless pool to swim in. The track team is a great idea, lots of benifits to cross training. In my day, I remember the Tenessee coach used to have his team run 6 miles a day. They went on to win NCAA’s several times I believe, and were a factor for many years.
Don’ worry about his size, plenty of great swimmers in that range. Remember how small Kitojyma looks in that center lane of the breastroke finals??? WHo knows, maybe he will become a great runner too, and you know the next step after that already…Main thing is that he keeps having fun at whatever he does. What about water polo? Any oppertunities there?? That was my diverson from the black line when I was his age, and fun as hell…
Thanks for the informative post Monty and the ideas. A few years ago, I had a great experience with that Chuck Norris Perfect Gym thing. The PT I was seeing for my IT Band had me on it using a balance board for my foot. SO I would have to press up while on the balance board. It was pretty challenging.
There really isn’t any water polo opportunities around here. My guess is that he would have to drive to Ann Arbor (about 45 minutes) and he isn’t quite ready for that sort of commute solo (or maybe more to the point I am not ready for him to have that sort of a solo commute!).
His team this year had 2 guys qualify for States in the breaststroke, my son and a kid who is a jr. They are completely different in terms of body shape. My son is shorter and more muscular and the other kid is long and lean. The other kid has a slower, longer, powerful stroke; where my boy, Joe, has a quicker stroke with a super powerful kick. Joe has been behind the other kid since they started swimming together 6 years ago, and just at the end of this season started to beat him. I think next year it is going to be a battle royale between them for the top breaststroking spot! It will be fun to watch so long as they keep it friendly. Hopefully the coach can keep their egos in check without dampening the competitiveness.
Curious as to why his coach wants him to take a few MONTHS off? As a former age group swimmer I rarely took off more that two weeks.
A Vasa trainer is nice but a cheaper answer would be stretch cords, the ones with the swimming paddle attachment. Also work on abs and flexibility. I would have him stay away from any weights and focus on strength over body weight, dips, push-up, plyometrics, medicine ball, etc.
Not sure what Club Wolverine offers but would expect there is value there. My bet is if he starts getting competitive relative to the CW swimmers, the snobbish thing would go away and the personal coach attention would increase. When I was his age I got more out of training with/racing guys older/faster than me than I ever did from individual coaching.
What kind of times are we talking about here regarding your son’s 50, 100 and 200 Breast?
What does your son wish to do? Does he want to go to college and swim or beyond?
Does he enjoy running and cross training?
I would not worry about his size as their is little to nothing you/he can do about it! However, as another mentioned, a well-rounded and safe weight training/dry-land training plan will go a very long way. If I may suggest, contact the woman who coached Mike Phelps prior to Beijing in the wt. room. She is at UM I believe. It may take a bit of $$$ and time to get your son where he/you want to go but you never know how far you can get unless you try. Good luck to your son! ERIK
Would any of the western Oakland County USS teams be a reasonable commute for him? Granted, OLY probably has just as bad of a reputation for exclusivity ans snobishness, but maybe one of the smaller clubs in that area would serve him better than CW would.
I just finished my 4 years swimming at a top 20 Div 1 school. I am also “short” for a swimmer (finals at our conference, everyone was 6’0 at least, and i’m 5 '7") body size doesnt matter-look at Kosuke Kitajima (gold in both breaststrokes at olympics) or Erik Vendt (first american under 15 minutes in the 1500) or Tae Hwan Park (400 meter freestyle champion)
taking some time off should be good because swimming for a whole year takes its toll mentally and physically, and at 15 its common to get burnt out later if all you do is train, so let him get some rest(i dont know about 2 months though…that is kind of long)
Now I am not really a breaststroker (1:00 100 scy yards), but I am a distance swimmer/400 imer, so once a week I did some breaststroke work. Running and biking are great crosstrainers for swimmers, especially biking because it has no impact. you also need to stretch alot if your cross-training-flexibility is key for breaststroke.
I am not sure about Club Wolverine because its run by different people now (last year Bob Bowman ran it). What you said is pretty much on par with what I have heard.
If he wants to go to the next level, honestly it doesn’t matter where you swim. He needs to pay attention to every detail when he swims…counting strokes, pullouts (which is becoming the most important part of breaststroke), head position, narrow kick, etc. Working on the small things will make him naturally better.
Distance free is more about work. to get better, you need to be training better then previous years. Flip turns are becoming more important in the SCY distance events too so a focus should be made on them (watch all the sub 15 minutes 1650s/4:20 500s, their turns are amazing)
sorry for the long post, but you can PM if you want any more information.
If the coach is really good, just ask him, he’ll know what’s best. However, not all coaches are created equal. I swam through college with a scholarship at a D1 school and burnout it extremely prevalent in swimming. Extremely. You’d be amazed how many fantastic collegiate swimmers are counting the days until they’re done by the time they get to the end of college. I took off my suit after my senior year championships and didn’t get in a pool until 5 years later. Swimming is so time intensive, so monotonous and so exhausting you’re truly walking a fine line with regards to burnout. If you want actual advice (not anonymous posters who may or may not have done the high school collegiate swim thing) send me a PM. It’s an issue I care a lot about and have quite a bit of experience with…
Would any of the western Oakland County USS teams be a reasonable commute for him?
Western Oakland County is just a little closer than Ann Arbor. If he were going to drive that far, I think I would just as soon have him in Hartland swimming with Teeters (Hartland’s coach who has been around for awhile). I think he will be OK swimming in Howell again this summer. This year they brought back Kristyn Textor, (I don’t know if you know these names or not) who had coached Howell’s girls varsity team for a number of years, and they have Jim Downes who is another one of those guys who has coached everywhere and with a lot of success. They just started a USS program this year with the age group team. I was thinking that if there would be some benefit to swimming with Club Wolverine knowing that it would be MUCH more expensive with minimal individual coaching, than we would definitely consider that. THanks for your thoughts though.
By the way, the State meet was phenomenal. Watching Grandville, Ann Arbor Huron, and Ann Arbor Pioneer duke it out was fantastic. My son’s team finished #10 overall. We were very satisfied with that for a second year team with only 20 guys on it. We had 13 qualifying State times including all 3 relays. My son didn’t get through the preliminaries. He went 1:02.50 in the breast and finished 20th. Top 16 advanced. He was .25 seconds away from the last qualifying time. Kind of a bummer, but he is only a sophomore. Always next year.
Thanks for your detailed response. I know body size is not the final say, but I have to believe that there are certain advantages to having that prototypical “swimmer’s body”. But knowing what you have and how to work with it is WAAYYYY more important.
He has never run before, so I think track will be good for him. I figure the track season pretty much takes him to the end of the school year at which point the summer swim season will pick back up. He might swim some on the weekends, but I assume that he will be busy with track too.
I like what you say about improving distance events requires training better than the prior year. My son is a gem for this. The coach loves him because he tells him to do something and my kid has a crazy intensity until he gets it done.
I will certainly pass on the flip turn advice to him.
Please hold your offer to accept PM’s from me on this matter. Thanks.
Thanks for your advice. I would love to hear more of your opinions based on your experience. If you would rather PM that is fine, but maybe somebody else could benefit from what you have to say.
My kid’s coach is really good at some things. But he is limited. I think he is pretty honest about his limitations and knows them. He is growing as a coach along with the swimmers. I think he understands the possibility of burnout and is trying to stave that out with some of the guys, which is why he is telling them to do something else (track in this case…about 1/2 the team is going out for track).
What do you recommend for an off-season dryland program?
Well, we never had much of an ‘off-season’ when I swam… Usually 2 - 4 weeks after nationals then back in the water for the summer season, which ran until mid-August, then winter season started up with school. But the big thing for me once I’d grown enough was a weight program. Nothing much, but I definitely found (and still find) weights to be very important for getting stronger. Yes, just literally stronger. I happen to believe there’s only so much you can get out of moving against your own body weight.
I did just realize I was basing this on a supposition. I assumed this coach was a club team coach. Now, I’m aware that in some parts of the US high school swimming is very competitive and serious, especially in the midwest. But on the coasts (I’m from NJ) high school swimming is really irrelevant and not in the same league. Is your son a HS swimmer, club swimmer, both? There can be a major difference, but one doesn’t preclude the other. I swam and trained for a club team but also competed for my HS. But the high school practices didn’t really compare to what we did at the club level. So, if you’re talking about a high school program where the swimmers are in the water 4 - 5 hours a week, there’s your answer. Time to find a club team. With few exceptions (PURE sprinters) you’re not going to ever be competitive (or learn enough consistent technique) without being in the water more. A good club team will have the workouts, diversity of talent and coaches to make a big difference. (I personally am not a fan of the massive programs, I think decent kids get lost in the shuffle and notable achievements get overlooked, but there are mid-sized clubs as well.)
So, I guess a little more info would be needed as to exactly what type of swimming/program he’s in now before I could really make a suggestion, but I will say this: I always swam best when I was excited to be swimming. By the end of HS that excitement was gone for a number of reasons, but when I got to college, it returned when I joined a team that ended up being more like family than anything else. You can achieve a lot on your own, but I am believer in the team’s importance, especially at that age…
**Yes, just literally stronger. I happen to believe there’s only so much you can get out of moving against your own body weight. **
Thank you. That is interesting and something to consider.
So, I guess a little more info would be needed as to exactly what type of swimming/program he’s in now before I could really make a suggestion,
My son has swum for an Age Group team since the 4th grade. The team was quasi competitive. They had meets, but the competition was marginal.
He swims on the HS Varsity team now. They are a Division I team in Michigan. They were 10th in the State this year. They are a second year team. They spend 18-20 hours a week in the pool training, depending on how many meets they have that week. They are in the pool 6 days a week. For the last 2 years, he swam year round (excpet for a couple of weeks in August when the pool shuts down) with the AG team. They started swimming USS this year which I think is a great thing for them. They used to swim in a watered down league that was not super competitive. This year they only lost 1 dual meet and that was to the team that took #9 in the State. They are actually a much better team. Here is a link to the psych sheet from this past weekend’s D-1 State meet: http://www.mhsaa.com/sports/bsw/09d1fin.html if you are interested.
We actually are trying to develop a top notch program. We have an AD who I think is supportive. I am looking for advice for (first and foremost) my son, but secondly I would like to help other kids develop as well, by offering quality advice and suggestions to the people who matter.
Really, if you’ve got the time and the support, it really only comes down to the coach, the workouts and the personalities. Legally, NCAA teams can’t work out more than 20 hours week (Somehow though…) and you can get damn fast with that much time. Actually, you can fast with a lot less. I had lot of friends who worked out more in HS than college, but they got faster in school when they got a chance to recover a bit more. Plus, it helps keep your life in balance, which is really important in HS. Unless you’re talking about a potential Olympian, I think it’s OK to keep some time for other activities as well. Necessary even. But really, with that kind of dedication it all comes down to the coach workouts. Some swimmers react better one form of coaching, others to something different. The best coaches will know how to divide the team up in workouts to maximize this. I’ve good coaches and not as good coaches, it does make a difference…
The league looks competitive. Not the fastest, but decent times. Interesting thing I have noticed, a lot comes from simply believing things are possible. I’ve seen teams that seem to do well by simply believing they could. Random story that might be applicable: End of practice as a freshman we were doing some 50s from the block. I assumed I got probably get a low 24. Then guys I’d been working out with started going 22s… Since my best time was in the low 22s, I hadn’t even considered that I could go nearly that fast after a practice. But we’d all been doing the same workouts so I just started to believe. And sure enough… This can absolutely happen on a large scale, so apart from the coach, I would say make sure you have a team that believes you can do greater things than you might expect. It sounds cheesy, but it’s also completely true…
You seem to be talking exactly about his team. The coach is really good at periodization. He seems to really get to know the kids and what they can handle. For instance, if he has 2 kids who are plateaued he knows which one needs to be pushed and which one should be rested. He is a good motivator too. He is comparatively weak in coaching technique…especially back and fly. He is an awesome guy though and really good for the kids I think.
The team has to share the pool with a middle school, club team, and community. The coach chose to let the middle school team practice first and he kept the guys in his classroom after school to eat and do homework/study. That is important becaue the district mandates that student athletes keep a 2.0 GPA in season.
I like what you say about believing the team can do something. I think that is true as well.
Thank you very much for your advice on this. It is invaluable.
The only other thing I have thought is to send him to Club Wolverine this summer. It is pretty expensive, and the team is pretty snobbish. One of the guys from the team swam with them last summer and he thought that it wasn’t worth it. If you were not elite, you only got the workouts with no individual coaching.
The first priority should be to swim more and swim more with folks who are going to push him in practice. That can be either a coach he respects and who will push him and/or kids he likes, respects etc enough that he will fight to keep up with them in practice. All the other stuff like dry land and more race competition is secondary to getting some place where he is swimming 16+ hours a week, every week for a long time. (You don’t have to swim that much to be good but you do have to swim that much if you have designs on taking it up a level). That being said, I’m sure a Vasa would not hurt either his or your swimming
I think the ideal situation would be to find a program where he clicks with a coach and gets lots of day to day attention. That could be Club Wolverine, or it could be another club but its an individual decision. I live in the Detroit area and know kids who swim for CW. I also have heard tell of the raging debates between folks along the lines of critisism you mention. My take is that it really is an individual thing. Some kids thrive there, others don’t, just like any other team. You are correct that it is just a fact that CW is big enough and rich enough in talent that if you are not at least making sectional cuts, you are probably not going to be in the “in” crowd. Even leaving out the CW elite Olympic program which is really a separate beast, CW is a huge team loaded with talent and you have to be scary fast to impress anybody, including the coaching staff. My hunch is the coaches do try to pay attention to everyone but, with lots of fast swimmers and lots of kids at any given practice, if you are not wowing them with your times, you’ll need a little personality to get and hold their attention. Some people will thrive just being part of that crowd, others are going to get discouraged. Your son may thrive there but if he (or Dad . . ) is looking for alot of praise and attention, even with his stellar times, he’s not going to be a star there. That being said, a summer of training with CW could improve his times next high school season quite a bit.
I am the father of three year round swimmers. One just finished his first HS season and first SR State Meet. The other two are awaiting Age Group State this coming weekend. I absolutely second what STP says…
“The first priority should be to swim more and swim more with folks who are going to push him in practice. That can be either a coach he respects and who will push him and/or kids he likes, respects etc enough that he will fight to keep up with them in practice. All the other stuff like dry land and more race competition is secondary to getting some place where he is swimming 16+ hours a week, every week for a long time.”
Particularly if he has not done 16 plus hours a week - week in and week out for a few years or more.
My experience as a swimmer, 16yrs, through DI (although I wasn’t a national caliber swimmer)…is it doesn’t matter how good you are of a swimmer, if you don’t have a good coach. Good coach’s can make poor swimmers or unfit swimmers fast; swimmers won’t improve much under a bad coach.
Look @ Phelps, he stuck to Bowman through a lot of sh$t, I think that says a lot. Schubert @ Stanford in the 90’s, etc. etc. etc.
As for the off season, my best year swimming in high school came off a fall of cross country running. The change of scenery was good.
If your kid isn’t a national level swimmer now, focus on the fun of it for him, keep it fresh, and keep him wanting to come back for more. Swimming is a rough sport, years and years of endurance are necessary to be fast @ that level, just put him where he wants to go, and run with it!
** Your son may thrive there but if he (or Dad . . ) is looking for alot of praise and attention, even with his stellar times, he’s not going to be a star there.**
It is likely that he would just be another kid in the pool at CW. I do not think he wants/needs praise and attention, in fact he hates it. My concern is that it would be extremely expensive and pretty inconvenient to add 45+ minutes of driving on either side of a practice if all he is going to get is workouts. The Howell program is going to offer 10-12 hours of water time/week this summer.
I appreciate your’s and DavidK’s thoughts on this.
**My concern is that it would be extremely expensive and pretty inconvenient to add 45+ minutes of driving on either side of a practice if all he is going to get is workouts. **
Coaching and the evironment are important but actually getting to practice consistantly is the most important thing. I confess to allowing my kids’ to somewhat languish in a summer league program in large part based on the fact they can ride their bikes to practice and they have a bunch of friends on the team.
My youngest wants to “step it up” this summer so we will be doing a second team (can’t drop the first totally because of the friends) and we are evaluating our choices based as much on car pool opportunites as coaching.
