After attending a swim camp recently and conversing with a fellow triathlete buddy of mine about our thoughts of the camp, I have been faced with a decision to change my swim mechanics somewhat drastically. Before I do, I am curious what other swim coaches and swim coinsurers thoughts are. But first, let me apologize for my ignorant knowledge for swimming.
So, the story goes like this. My brother and I had decided to begin working on our swim stroke again after about a 2 year hiatus of no stroke work. I recently attended swimming technology research (STR) camp and was given some really good points. My previous stroke work was by total immersion (TI) and it was the foundation of TI that got me to where I am today (basically an hour swimmer at IM’s). From the STR clinic, I found out that I basically had a non-existent push phase of my stroke (from mid ribs to thigh). Upon returning to our master’s swim and relaying my “new” found info, he said that the STR method is for sprinters. Front end swimming is for long distance swimmers. I realized at this point I was stuck between two schools of thought: 1) working on the push phase of the stroke maximizing the “strength” portion of the stroke (STR) or 2) swim “up front” maximizing the glide (masters swim coach) for long distance.
Here are my thoughts. I question the elimination of the glide phase by STR. I came away from the STR clinic knowing more about the push phases (his specialty) than I knew previously. I wonder about the loss of the “glide phase” and the angle at which the hand enters the water (STR suggest entering at eye level, hand should enter just slight in front of the head and press to about the 4 o’clock position – this eliminates the glide). My buddy reminded me of something that I had heard before that TI style swimming will only take you so far and then you have to focus on propulsion to get much faster. From that stand point this makes sense to eliminate the glide phase and really pay attention to the push phase (STR says push phase should be stronger than pull phase (2 to 1 in most cases)). Going back, I watched videos of Ian Thorpe, etc., and noticed that in slow motion they DO have a “glide phase” and their hand DOES NOT enter at 4 o’clock (it enters at the surface). Also, when they are “gliding”, they are not really just gliding; they are actually still finishing their push phase while their front arm is fully extended. So, their arm enters at the surface and then drops down to the 4 o’clock (powerful) position while they are finishing their push phase. Once their push phase is complete, they immediately start with their pull phase with the other arm. They are essentially never just “gliding” (aka slowing down) but they are keeping their vessel as long as possible while also propulsing constantly.
There are obviously 25 ways to skin a cat, so it may just come down to what feels best for me. People still swim very fast while incorporating a glide phase. The key seems to be constantly propulsing in one way or another.
My question is….what is the best approach? I really like the idea of the push phase taught by STR, but over the past month, my arms have been “rocked” every time I leave the water b/c I have never used those muscles before. Before I continue and make big changes, I would really like to know if it is worth it. Is there a way to incorporate both and in the long run of an IM, what school of thought is going to get me the best bang for my buck(time and efficiency)?
swimming up front is more effecient and better stroke mechanics wise. Most swimmers that “push” out the back end up overextending their arms and having trouble with a smooth recovery. Our shoulder joints only bend in a few directions well, straight out the back is not one of them. The reason to move the stroke forward is that it allows you to increase your turnover effeciently, since you are not pulling with the strength of your arms, but rather through the leverage that rotating about your axis and using your core. STR you are more on arm strength and less on rotation and leverage.
that said, out the back is way easier to learn than swimming up front. However, anyone who swims up front will have an advantage that you will have to overcome by being fitter or working harder than them.
(all the best sprinters in the world swim with an up front catch and pull phase as well. I swim with Ervin when he learned how to do it, and his stroke was more forward than anyone on the team)
This is getting way too overcomplicated for you. IMHO, you need to simplify what your arms are doing. I have a couple of suggestions and willing to share (pm) with you. Basically your arms are less complicated for swimming than your legs are for walking! They most certainly should not be shattered after swimming. We are constantly being told and taught to get EVERYTHING out of our arms ON EACH ‘pull’. Step back for a second and apply that same thought to walking or running (read:lunges, (front quad) and bounding (end of pull phase thrusting)). Both SHATTER your legs and cause massive amounts wasted energy.
Once you realize that swimming is about preserving velocity and not creating it, you will take off.
all the best,
IMHO,You’re getting a little confused by the definition of front quadrant swimming. Front quadrant swimming just means that there is a point in the stroke cycle where both arms are residing in the front quadrant of your body. It does not mean that you do all of the swimming up front and eliminate the push phase of the stroke. In this sense, both TI & STR are right.
As you’ve observed from Thorpe’s video, there is no actual “glide” in an efficient stroke. One arm is always creating propulsion. That said, one arm is relatively stationary as the other arm is creating its push. The reason for this is simple, the recovering arm travels a lot faster through air than the propulsive arm does through water. Therefore, it arrives up front, before the other arm has finished its push.
Think about what the above scenario means for those swimmers who keep the arms equidistant. Do they slow the recovering arm to keep the arms equidistant or do they tend to speed up the pulling arm (and not get a full catch in the process)? Take a look at the stroke rate of these high rev swimmers and you will see what I mean.
If I were you, I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. You probably need to work on the back end extension of the stroke but that doesn’t mean that you should throw all of the TI concepts out the window.
Also, - I disagree that sprinters and world class swimmers are “front quadrant swimmers.” If you analyze the technique(s) of world class swimmers you don’t come away with too clear a set of consensi, - (word)?
Once you’ve developed into a very good swimmer, - you are going to be stronger and hold onto your “catch” longer. As DaveD intimated, - you do not PULL through the water, - you catch the water and throw your body over your hand(s). (This is corraborated by film research). The stronger you are, - the firmer catch you get, the longer catch you hold on to, and the further you can throw your body over your hand(s).
The “glide” phase is really something that is kind of misnomer, - and something that, IMO, you should be careful about. If you have a balanced stroke, - one arm is gliding while the other is completing catch/hold: unless you are swimming a radical “catch-up” stroke…
I think TI misses a lot of focus on the push phase. I am doing a similar thing, focusing on my push - rib cage to waist - and it does feel different/harder. I swim about the same IM time as you and I think I have been missing a lot of propulsion. I think you have to keep it simple however, and just do a few weeks where you increase your awareness of that portion of the stroke a bit and let the rest of the stroke happen as it may. Push weakness was particularly noticable at the wall before a flip turn where I realized my last stroke was basically wasted. The additional awareness of what happens to your stroke is hugely beneficial.
Thanks for the props Toe! You are dead on about setting an anchor and then sliding your body past it!
To the other guy:
If you think that the push phase of your stroke is helpful, then try it vertically in the deep end. Take your legs and turn them off (save to stay vertical) and use your hands in the same LINEAR motion from ribcage to thigh (keeping them linear IE straight up and down, *side note here is you will have to bend your elbow like you do in ‘high elbow swimming’ to keep your hands near your body) and try a few PUSHES in that phase in which you are speaking. **take a few good breaths bc you will soon need them.
This will basically show you that the PUSH phase and extending the length of each stroke from ribcage to thigh is not only useless, but actually debilitating.
daved
Your example doesn’t seem like a good demonstration of why the push phase of the stroke is useless. When you are vertical in the water it’s difficult to lift your arm up after you’ve completed the push. When you are swimming horizontally you have no resistance as you finish the push and lift your arm out of the water for recovery. I’m not a very good swimmer but just this past week I noticed that the myself getting a better push, or extending the catch if you prefer. My arms have been more fatigued, but I think it is keeping my speed more constant.
When you are vertical in the water it’s difficult to lift your arm up after you’ve completed the push. When you are swimming horizontally you have no resistance as you finish the push and lift your arm out of the water for recovery.
Tenacious,
The TWO points this DOES demonstrate:
There should be (1)NO pushing and (2)NO lifting. This drill works bc of exactly your feedback. Not to sound smug (bc I am not) but that is exactly the reaction that one should have. Your feedback validates the original intent of that drill.
And your arms are more tired bc you are now asking them to do more. Ask them to do less and focus on your breathing and posture.
All the best,
DaveD
Maybe I don’t understand. When you finish your stroke there is no resistance as your arm recovers, but when you’re vertical there is. Can you give a description of you you feel a stroke should be finished?
As DaveD intimated, - you do not PULL through the water, - you catch the water and throw your body over your hand(s). (This is corraborated by film research).
Nope. Only when your hand moves back you accelerate forward. THIS is corroborated by “film research”.
Tenacious,
To be totally honest I dont understand your question. If could please restate, then I can accurately answer. Your statement however, leads me to believe that you think there is a point where the stroke ‘finishes’. I dont view the stroke that way. The recovery begins when the body has rotated to the point where the anchor is released from the water. Thus you stop FOCUSING ON THE ARMS AND HANDS. I know it is a big pill to swallow here, but the body dictates performance, power, speed etc…fixing the arms and focusing on them will just wear them out sooner (as you described in earlier posts about arms being more tired) and lead to frustration along the way.
Specifically describe your question so I can answer. But doing the drill we were talking about in a vertical orientation, where you are just focusing on ribcage to thigh, there will def be resistence when you slide your hand back up (lifing in a horizontal plane) to “PUSH” down again.
daved
I am reading this thread in disbelief. I reluctantly gave up my back end or push phase of teaching and swimming a few years ago. The strong push phase drives your hip back into the water and wastes a tremendous amount of energy while forstering many hand entry errors.
Sprinters such as Anthony Ervin do not have a strong back end to their strokes. Anthony mentioned that he does not use his triceps. He uses his hips. He is the one who taught me the seweing machine drill which is a totally front end drill.
The seemingly glide in your stroke is what helps the flow line and makes the stroke feel effortless.
I would have definitely failed as a student at the STR clinic.
DougStern
Daved, could you give some more detail on “The recovery begins when the body has rotated to the point where the anchor is released from the water.”
My masters coach has talked about pulling this anchor point. Just trying to figure out how to correctly get the body rotation involved. Not an easy thing for us non
swimmers to learn.
I am a mop swimmer 32-33 min 1.2 miles. I just realized that until my body position is perfect in the water there is no way I will ever get any faster, I think that I have a huge engine just no technique. What are some of the better drills to help and fix that problem? THis winter I quit my masters program for a session to concentrate on proper swimming all the time and not trying to go fast all the time. I have put all the toys away and pretty much kick on my back, side and do a buch on one arm swimming. Anything else I should do?
I am not to worried about my pull, it stinks, straight arm. I think that I need to correct droping my hips first. But then again if I new how to anchor correctly, would it help in my overall body position?