I’ve got a pretty basic swimming question for you guys:
Only been seriously swimming for a month now. Over the last three weeks I went from dying at 500 yards to doing a 2000 yard swim today in an hour and a half (I know, slow but I did it).
Here’s my question: How important is kicking?
I find that if I do minimal kicking I can get a 150 or 200 yard set in. When I use a pull buoy I’ve had absolutely no problems doing 2/150 or 3/150. With kicking I’m getting really tired after 75.
Obviously my kick pretty much sucks and today I decided to do 4/50 sets of sprints 2 kicking/2 not kicking. With kicking I was at 55 seconds without kicking I was at 45.
Any thoughts/drills/comments would help.
Thanks!
–Sax
I’m an inexperienced swimmer as well and I also have issues getting the kicking down… I have trouble getting in a rhythm unless I am really focusing on it. I figure with more time in the pool it will become more comfortable.
I am kind of surprised that it slows you down in a sprint though. Maybe you are creating more drag than propulsion?
not very important, i was a 6 beat kicker in highschool and i figured there was no need to kick when youre doing a mile+. oh yeah, you have to bike and run after that.
No offense, but you must suck at kicking, if it makes you slower. I can understand getting tired quicker, but going 10 seconds slower on a 50? Something is very wrong there.
While kicking is less important in triathlon swims than in pool races, it does have its place. The point of kicking in a long distance swim is not so much propulsion as maintaining proper body position. You want to kick so that your legs will stay up at the surface of the water, not hanging down and dragging through the water. That said, I hardly kick when I swim, but that’s because, after years in the pool, I can maintain a good body position without kicking much.
The reason you can swim well with the pull buoy is because the buoy helps correct your position for you. I would recommend holding off on using the pull buoy, because it will act as a crutch, preventing you from actually learning proper positioning.
I would recommend finding someone to watch you swim (tri coach, master’s coach, ex-swimmer, etc.), so that they can figure out exactly what is wrong with your kick. You can’t really fix the problem until you know what it is.
Are your ankles very flexible? Do you flex or point your toes when kicking? Do you keep your head up (looking forward) or down (looking down) when you swim? Do you kick with your whole leg, using your hips; or do you bend your knees a lot when kicking?
As you can see, there are a lot of factors in play, any of which could be off.
Since you’ve only been seriously swimming for a month, I’d say give it time. Practice kicking, both on its own and while swimming. Have someone experienced watch you and give you pointers.
Kicking is not really all that important for your propulsion. In other words, you can have a very light kick and still swim a good pace, and you can have a very strong kick and not be much faster over a long distance.
Here’s the thing though. If your kick is bad… if you’re doing something that is getting you tired… if you’re legs are spreading too wide causing extra resistance… or if you’re doing a bunch of other stuff, that will cause you to go slower, and probably get tired quicker. So, in this regard, kicking is VERY important for beginning swimmers. It’s important to be able to have a functional kick that doesn’t impede your progress otherwise.
I generally kick very little when I swim long distances. I mainly kick to help rotate the hips during my stroke. I think that I’m doing a two or three beat kick (2 or 3 kicks per stoke).
This is really a question for Tigerchick. TigerChick, where are you?
well if your doing a pool race then kicking is very important, even in the mile.
Saxman, it appears that everyone who has responded thus far are VERY miss-informed regarding the importance of the kick. The kick is more important than most swimming components. The kick is essential to efficient swimming, speed and body allignment. While a 6 beat kick is not necessary, an efficient kick is. This may be a 2 or 4 beat kick, but it must keep you on the water surface, and not such that your feet are dragging 12 inches below the water level.
Trust me, this is the most important item for anyone - the kick is like the bouyancy provided by a wetsuit.
Many runners have stiff ankles, which makes efficient kicking more difficult. Accordingly, some ankle flexibility exercises and kicking drills within your 2000 swim should be included.
Kicking sucks up 60% of your oxygen (leg muscles = bigger muscle group than arms) and only gives like 20% of propulsion. Kick with ‘willow legs.’
My guess: you are scissoring your legs (spreading them too wide) and that’s slowing you down. Think “tight kick” and try some streamlined kicking on your BACK with zoomers (short fins) to get a feel for it.
love
tc
Saxman, it appears that everyone who has responded thus far are VERY miss-informed regarding the importance of the kick.
Right, John Kenny doesn’t know squat about swimming, especially distance swimming. Please.
(I think he did a 10km open water swim in about 1:47. Yeah, that’s about 100 100s all in about 1:03
Saxman, it appears that everyone who has responded thus far are VERY miss-informed regarding the importance of the kick.
Right, John Kenny doesn’t know squat about swimming, especially distance swimming. Please.
(I think he did a 10km open water swim in about 1:47. Yeah, that’s about 100 100s all in about 1:03
Kenny’s comments:
"Kicking is not really all that important for your propulsion. In other words, you can have a very light kick and still swim a good pace, and you can have a very strong kick and not be much faster over a long distance.
Here’s the thing though. If your kick is bad… if you’re doing something that is getting you tired… if you’re legs are spreading too wide causing extra resistance… or if you’re doing a bunch of other stuff, that will cause you to go slower, and probably get tired quicker. So, in this regard, kicking is VERY important for beginning swimmers. It’s important to be able to have a functional kick that doesn’t impede your progress otherwise"
Theses mirror mine, the kick is very important. Looks like an Olympian, 2 time FINA world record holder, and fast 10 K open water swimmer have spoken - I think the answer is clear - kicking is important.
Saxman, it appears that everyone who has responded thus far are VERY miss-informed regarding the importance of the kick.
Right, John Kenny doesn’t know squat about swimming, especially distance swimming. Please.
(I think he did a 10km open water swim in about 1:47. Yeah, that’s about 100 100s all in about 1:03
Kenny’s comments:
"Kicking is not really all that important for your propulsion. In other words, you can have a very light kick and still swim a good pace, and you can have a very strong kick and not be much faster over a long distance.
Here’s the thing though. If your kick is bad… if you’re doing something that is getting you tired… if you’re legs are spreading too wide causing extra resistance… or if you’re doing a bunch of other stuff, that will cause you to go slower, and probably get tired quicker. So, in this regard, kicking is VERY important for beginning swimmers. It’s important to be able to have a functional kick that doesn’t impede your progress otherwise"
Theses mirror mine, the kick is very important. Looks like an Olympian, 2 time FINA world record holder, and fast 10 K open water swimmer have spoken - I think the answer is clear - kicking is important.
Funny, you said “it appears that everyone who has responded thus far are VERY miss-informed” (emphasis added). What part of “everyone” don’t I understand?
Another possibility, since you are a new swimmer, are you kicking with toes pointed towards the end of the pool or towards the bottom of the pool? If you kick with stiff ankles and toes are pointed towards bottom of the pool, your kick can actually provide negative propulsion, which might explain the lost 10s per 50. I’ve seen this a LOT with new or purely recreational swimmers.
BTW, x2 (or 3?) on JK advice to learn proper body positioning through integrating rotation and kick 1st, then minimize kick for distance swimming while maintaining good rotation and body position. There really isn’t a shortcut for this if you want to learn to be a good swimmer.
People like to throw around percentages and absolutes as though every swimmer is identical. The simple fact is that kicking IS important … sometimes. Is it important for good positioning? Most likely. Is it important for constant propulsion? Not so likely. Is it important for supplementing fatigued arms/shoulders? Absolutely. A good kick shouldn’t produce much fatigue because it requires very little force (when done properly) and originates from the upper legs and hips which are accustomed to much more rigorous duty.
Since most races are OWS & wetsuit, how much does that change the equation?
I know that is sure FEELS like my legs are so high up in the water that I kick about
50% air.
-Jot
Good body position isn’t only about keeping the legs up, its keeping a tight line along the entire body, so the head, chest, hips are all aligned. This produces the best streamline, whether you’re in a wetsuit or not. Imagine pushing a loose bag of apples thought the water vs. a tight cylinder of apples. Even if supported by neoprene the tight cylinder will be considerably more hydrodynamic. A good kick, formwise, will allow you to breath without disturbing your cylinder shape, and keep a good position for strong pull. Also bursts of speed to help get around slower swimmers.
Since most races are OWS & wetsuit, how much does that change the equation?
I know that is sure FEELS like my legs are so high up in the water that I kick about
50% air.
-Jot
This is true. But next time you’re in the water (wetsuit or not) let your legs go completely limp. Don’t kick, don’t turn, don’t scissor, just drag them behind you. You’ll probably find that without the directional use of your legs, body rotation is substantially more difficult. Kicking 50% air means that you’re also kicking 50% water. You may not be generating much forward thrust with your 50% utilization, but you’re undoubtedly generating the roll that enables you to breathe.
Here’s what I think explains it:
Your non-kicking swims/sets are using the pull buoy. What you are really experiencing (when you go faster) is the importance of keeping your horizontal position in the water. You are AT LEAST 10 seconds slower in a 50 when your feet are dragging the bottom and you are plowing the water.
Also, the legs might contribute 20% to your motion but use 80% of the oxygen. When swimming further than a sprint you will benefit from using your kicking as little as possible.
For a beginning swimmer, you might find it impossible to keep your legs up without frantic kicking though.
Every time you use your pull buoy and get faster and find it easier to swim, just know that this is due to weak technique and you need to focus on your body position in the water more (without the buoy).
Also bursts of speed to help get around slower swimmers.
HAHAHAHAH! You’re killing me. I am the slower swimmers. 
I do kick when I OWS with a wetsuit, but it does seem like it is a formality
to help me get the body roll right.
-Jot
As someone who was once in exactly your position, I can tell you that kicking is important for all the reasons mentioned above. When I started out swimming after a long layoff to attempt my first triathlon, my ankles were so inflexible that the best they could stretch was just past 90 degrees. My feet were more like skegs on a kayak than instruments of propulsion. It was so bad that if I kicked with a kickboard, I would actually go backwards. It was difficult to get more flexibility–stretching helped, but trying to keep my feet more extended while kicking simply led to foot cramps.
I actually intially learned to swim at a young age with a truncheon kick. Very inefficient and slow. As a mesomorph, I’m not very bouyant and at one of the classes I took, when asked to hold onto the side of the pool kicking, then slowly exhale and push away from the wall and allow the body to float, I sank to the bottom. Thus, without a wetsuit, I need a light 6 beat kick to keep the body position horizontal. Without the pull bouy, you’re probably dragging your legs and as another poster suggested having negative propulsion that slows you.
The second problem I encountered while trying to improve was actually kicking from the hip. The tendency is to kick from the knee. I once contacted Doug Stern about this and his suggestion was to kick on my back until it became second nature. He was right. Kicking with Zoomer fins on my back led to learning the right technique for kicking and also made my ankles much more flexible. The second thing that really helped the kicking was vertical kicking in the deep water once I had the technique down. It took ages to be able to do this without fins but really helped learn a good tight kick.
Even with these improvements, I’m still slow, best IM swim time aroud 1:30 and currently only holding about 1:45/100yd. The big improvement has come with efficiency as I no longer come out of the water out of breath and stumbling toward the transition area. I would suggest working with a swim coach as you will save yourself the heartache of trying to undo poor technique strengthened by high volume yardage of bad habits. Like Ben Franklin said, “He who practices incorrectly only succeeds in getting better at getting worse.” I may have paraphrased that quote, but you get the idea. Good luck.