I’m not clear on what that “other” arms does when I roll to breathe. When I don’t breathe, I swim something close to catch up style. So, since I breathe to the left (mostly), when I am recovering on the right, my left arm stays extended until that right hand hits the water (somewhere between my goggles and left elbow). Kind of feels like I’m reaching for the string on a bow and arrow.
But… when I am extended on the right and taking a breath on the left, I catch myself sometimes starting that stroke a lot earlier than on the other side. It’s not like my elbow drops all that much because I manage a fairly vertical forearm*, but rather I just start taking that pull. Sometimes my right arm will be almost pointing down before that left arm gets in and extended.
*Some have said to skip the “hinge at the elbow to get a vertical forearm” and just pull down and back from the point of extension. That seems then like all the action is at the shoulder (i.e., the arm stays more straight and rotates down/back at the shoulder. It also seems like it would be harder to grab much water that way.
I can’t argue any of these points since I am purrrrrrrrrrrre beginner (just under 2 min 100s, 2:30 pace on longer stuff).
I kind of have one (or rather, one that looks from time to time, and who I can ask Qs). Very respected. But I’m not sure a super-elite like that can relate to the beginner.
It sounds like you have a super elite buddy that gives you a tip or pointer from time to time. What you need is someone who will focus on ***you ***for 30-45min several times in order to fix any flaws you may have. I understand where you are coming from in the relating to you dept. I’ve swam w/ a swimmer ranked #2 and #3 in the world in the 100 & 200m breaststroke for a summer. He couldn’t teach a frog, elite or not, how to swim. Thats why you need someone who knows how to teach swimming, be it a world class swimmer or not.
Make sure to exhale in the water and then turn for a quick breath and face right back in the water. You might be spending to much time with your face out of the water, hence your right arm start dropping.
Try breathing every 3 strokes, it will develop a good rhythm.
I found myself doing the same thing when I was swimming at your speed not too long ago, but I did it knowingly figuring that when I finally got the breathing thing down that I would break the bad habit later.
From that point I actually did two things, first I started to correct that problem of pulling early with the offside arm that you described, and then while I couldn’t quite get it perfect, I started pulling with the other arm earlier and balanced the stroke out. Now I start my catch about when my recovering hand gets up to my head. Much earlier than the TI guys like, but it works well for me.
In hind sight, I might have done some swimming with fins to help me get some speed and correct my blance problem, but that might have been a crutch difficult to lose. More pull bouy work might have helped too so I could cheat and lift my head to breathe.
It sounds like you have a super elite buddy that gives you a tip or pointer from time to time. What you need is someone who will focus on ***you ***for 30-45min several times in order to fix any flaws you may have. I understand where you are coming from in the relating to you dept. I’ve swam w/ a swimmer ranked #2 and #3 in the world in the 100 & 200m breaststroke for a summer. He couldn’t teach a frog, elite or not, how to swim. Thats why you need someone who knows how to teach swimming, be it a world class swimmer or not.
I hear you. My situation’s a little better than that. I swim with a group that is coached/instructed by the elite swimmer. That said, I would like to find someone to spend 30 mins every week or so, but great instructors don’t grow on trees! Add to that the fact that I hear different things from the several different instructors who’ve advised me to date. Thus why I turn to a broader audience for diverse opinions…
First find your hand on the non-breathing side. That hand should enter the water in line with your extended elbow and in line with your shoulder. As soon as that hand touches the water, flex your wrist on the extended arm, start your hip moving and take your breathe. You will be breathing near the beginning of the stroke.
Next - when your head comes back to the water find that hand again (the one opposite your breathing side). It will have extended from elbow line to full extension.
Your stroke on each side will be exactly the same. When your hand enters the water, flex the opposite hand and start your stroke. This occurs whether you take a breath or not.
Here’s my $0.02, based on, what I think was the same experience:
I would guess that anyone doing a “something close to catch-up style” swimming is heavily into TI. My foray into TI caused the following: A sinking feeling when I went to breath (because I was losing momentum through the water), and a counter-sinking effort to push my hand down at first on the catch, to push my head above water as my feet sank. I changed to more like doing the “kayak stroke”; stopped counting strokes and just tried to keep my body moving through the water. The kayak mode does seem to tire you out the first few times because you are engaging muscles a bit differently, but I found it much more efficient, almost immediately (and could see my stroke count drop, based on what breathing stroke I was at when I got to the end of the pool). I also focused on keeping my head on the same axis as my body and just swiveling it, without lifting it and pulling myself through the water top of head first.
Try just pulling - back - the moment you hand/arm is extended in the water and try to keep you “body on a string”, aligned and horizontally being pulled by your arms.
Doug, not to change the subject, but I read your little swimming/aqua-running article in Runners World. I can’t wait to try doing some water running. This is actually perfect timing for me because I think I might have injured by foot (Metatarsal I’m guessing) this past weekend during a 5-mile race. So I’m planning on taking at least a week off from running and will try this aqua-running thing.
Deepwater running is the single best way to continue running through an injury. It will also get you faster on the roads when you are healthy.
I know that runners are resistant to running in the water but it will help prevent them from getting injured in the first place and actrually increase their speed.
First find your hand on the non-breathing side. That hand should enter the water in line with your extended elbow and in line with your shoulder. As soon as that hand touches the water, flex your wrist on the extended arm, start your hip moving and take your breathe. You will be breathing near the beginning of the stroke.
Next - when your head comes back to the water find that hand again (the one opposite your breathing side). It will have extended from elbow line to full extension.
Your stroke on each side will be exactly the same. When your hand enters the water, flex the opposite hand and start your stroke. This occurs whether you take a breath or not.
DougStern
Yes, I need to work on that early breath. I breathe late to the right, and find myself heading underwater quickly. Thus, why I breathe mostly to the right for now.
Doug, do you suggest just pulling back (i.e., letting the elbow drop a lot but still way above the hand)? Or do you teach a high elbow through the whole stroke (where the elbow stays nearer the surface of the water through the pull)? With my shoulder troubles, I’m confused over which to do, and everyone seems mixed on this.
Do keep your elbow much higher than your hand. Ease into the catch by feeling as if your elbow is moving forward as you flex your wrist. Then pull back fast.
If you breathe at the front end of your stroke your head will barely move and you will be able to recover your arm faster thus eliminating the other arm falling down.
Ice your shoulders when you finish your workout and definitely keep your hand close too your body when they recover. Thre will be less stress on your shoulders.
Thanks, Doug. So, if I’ve got this right… Your upper arm stays pointing forward during the catch, while the wrist flexes and the hand drops. Viewed from in front of you, I would see the top of your head and shoulders, and your forearm pointing down some. Then, when you start your pull, your upper arm is still up near the surface, and you pull that forearm through the water.
This is very different from simply keeping a more or less straight arm, and pulling. In that case, you’d feel like you would scrape the bottom of the pool if it were 3’ deep or so, even though the elbow is still high.
I worked on trying not to lift my head, drop my arm, etc., tonight. I don’t think I’m lifting my head (or at least not much, but heh, I probably am).
Question. When I turn my head back down (I tend to wait until my recovering arm is in sight and naturally roll back down), I barely catch a glimpse of that off side hand. By the time I get my head down it’s going. My elbow is high, mind you, but unless I swim true catch up, I’ll barely even see it. Normal? OK? Bad? I’m looking for visual cues to help with this (a la Doug’s cue with flexing the wrist and seeing the palm with “hip” on it… but I ain’t seeing no hand!).
Just got back from my hernia repair and I walked a mile very slowly.
Your head should lead your arm on recovery. As your head returns to enter is pulls your shoulder with it. This gives you enough time to see the other hand.
Just got back from my hernia repair and I walked a mile very slowly.
Your head should lead your arm on recovery. As your head returns to enter is pulls your shoulder with it. This gives you enough time to see the other hand.
DougStern
Doug, you are supposed to be resting, not answering my inane questions.
My head does kind of lead my shoulder. I know this because if I try to take a quicker breath and get my face back down faster, my recovery is quicker too. Can’t do a quick breath and a slow recovery.
I barely catch a glimpse of that off hand, and need to work on that more.
I am up and walking around. The operation was amazing. I have three holes in my stomach.
I gave a swimming lesson already this morning.
Keep looking for your arm on the non breathing side twice in each stroke: once when your hand enters the water in line with your elbow and the other when your head returns to the water.
I am ot allowed to go into the water for eight days.