Swimming made simple

Triathlon Forum
21

So this is a pretty interesting concept, and one that I’ve been moving towards as a time-crunched swimmer (currently 1x weekly for quite a while). I’ve been doing lots of 50s and 100s, and actually gotten quicker on this limited volume by making sure my quality is high.

What would you say for a one-stroke, adult-onset swimmer who has never attempted a stroke of butterfly in their life, as far as adopting training similar to this?

I mean, at the beginning, I’m looking at 60x50, or 90x50, but it’d all be free. I like the quarters of the last length sprinted 4, 3, 2, and every 10th a full sprint, but what about the other strokes?

-Eric

22

The secret is consistency. Spend more time training and less time on message boards and you will get faster.

No, consistency is only a part of it, but not the only piece or secret.

There are quite a few middling AG triathletes who are VERY consistent with swim training. They are very consistent in putting up 2000yds/workout, 3 times per week, without fail, year round. With plenty of mixed interval intensities in there, from aerobic to all-out.

And many (?most) of these AG triathletes can’t even break out of the MOP, and for the less fortunate, they’re stuck in BOP. They are very, very consistent but it’s absolutely not enough to be a good swimmer.

Consistency + volume increases start rounding out the equation. Sutto’s consistency isn’t 2000yds/workout 3 times per week - it’s 6000 per workout, 5+ times per week, so in the range of 30k/wk. NOW we’re talking real improvement.

I’d argue those two are the main message. All the other stuff is helpful, but without those two, your improvement will be very limited except for the gifted ones.

I also find it very noteable that in all the KQ people I’ve heard interviewed here and elsewhere, zero of them are approaching 30k/wk in swimming at any point in the entire buildup for Kona, if ever in their tri careers.

Well now that I have a number of 30km+ swim weeks under my belt, I just need to get my run act back together and fit your category of the outlier Kona qualifier (I guess this would mean I have to actually get my run fast enough as my bike and swim are in th range…but I also need do an Ironman in 55-59 and do a few 30km weeks in that build to fit the category, so for now its a bit of a pipe dream, but I want to believe its in realm of possibility)

23

5x matters way more than 30k. I make the same rate of improvement on 5x3k as I do on 5x5k until I plateau. After that, I have to add volume.

I thought everyone knew that 3x won’t get you very far.

Get wet, swim hard, rinse&repeat, alot.

Everyone knows you have to swim more period, but do you think most triathletes realistically swim 5x.per week 3k each session while doing bike run in a race build? Do you even do that?

Consistency and volume are critical but the far.more relevant and useful question is how you fit that into a plan of swim bike run year round consistently.

I had the opportunity to give this a lot of thought as I have done really low volume biking for a number of years and high volume swimming. Its easy enough to do high volume swimming if you cut out a pile of biking. If you swim all 4 strokes the conditioning of the legs is amazing. I am actually biking at higher wattages now as I enter 55-59 in few weeks than when I was racing 40-44. I concluded that I wasted a good part of the last 20 years on the trainer and biking instead of in the pool.

The bike hours hardly translate at all into a faster swim, but the high volume high intensity swims sessions translate very quickly to great bike TT legs. I did my first season of tris this past summer and this year my bike mileage was HALF of what I did when I was a triathlete. But my bike splits were no different and my wattages on the trainer are higher than they used to be. I did 5000km less biking (so let’s call it 170 hours less biking, but I did 800km more swimming, so call that 270 hrs more). In any case, my times to T2 were very similar to the past by cutting out a pile of biking and moving more time to swim. I AM swimming all 4 strokes and doing a lot of leg sets though. I think for a good transfer to the bike, all that back stroke, breast and fly and associated leg sets for them really help me…if you do triathlete training and have the pull buoy in there 90% of the time to simulate wetsuit, well that type of swim training likely won’t transfer that well to the bike since you are not using your legs.

I used to be in this camp thinking incremental swim time was a waste of time and was taking away from the bike, but I am sold that most of that time on the bike is a waste of time for half IM and Olympic tri. Most of the performance for these distances can be gained on the bike with shorter harder intervals sessions. 90 min on the trainer is excellent for a half IM or Olympic tri (provided that overall volume is high enough).

So whether I do 8 hours swim, 4 hours bike and 4 hours run or 3 hours swim, 9 hrs bike, 4 hrs run its all the same total hours, and the question is which breakdown do I get more performance out of. I am leaning towards the high swim option.

I have a half IM coming up in 8 weeks in Dubai. I am going to experiment with the 7 hours swim, 3-4 hrs trainer, 4-5 hrs run plan and can report back.

Dev

24

Right, we get it; swim a lot consistently and you get faster on the swim. You also get faster on the bike if you bike more and faster on the run if you run more. See my thread on competing triathlon advice. But I do plan to try a shorter version of the specific workout at some point!

25

I’m def interested in hearing of your results with the swim focus. Gonna name drop again but coach Matt Dixon always says to lean into swimming, and I’m on similar page as you and him, in that swim focus seems to help me disproportionately well.

I suspect some factors help this, but I’m just guessing. First, I think agers underestimate how much the swim takes out of them. So in your case you might be seeing a lot more of your bike potential on the tri race course than the past where you swam comparably less. Next is that since swimming doesn’t hammer your legs.like running you may have higher quality run bike workouts and possibly fresher legs on race day due to the swim focus.

Alas, swim dominance isn’t the only answer as ex.oly trials swimmers often get beat pretty badly by balanced strong agers in tri.

But count me in as one who really values.the effects of swim training.for tri in general.

26

I’m def interested in hearing of your results with the swim focus. Gonna name drop again but coach Matt Dixon always says to lean into swimming, and I’m on similar page as you and him, in that swim focus seems to help me disproportionately well.

I suspect some factors help this, but I’m just guessing. First, I think agers underestimate how much the swim takes out of them. So in your case you might be seeing a lot more of your bike potential on the tri race course than the past where you swam comparably less. Next is that since swimming doesn’t hammer your legs.like running you may have higher quality run bike workouts and possibly fresher legs on race day due to the swim focus.

Alas, swim dominance isn’t the only answer as ex.oly trials swimmers often get beat pretty badly by balanced strong agers in tri.

But count me in as one who really values.the effects of swim training.for tri in general.

I believe you are correct on both points:

More and harder swim training allows for faster swim time + more legs for the bike (even off less bike training). The swim does take out a lot from us. Now that I have done some hard pool 1500m races, I can see that impactHigh volume swim training seems to raise overall training load (at least cardio side) in a week. The average minute of swim training just has more cardio load than the same minute of volume during the bike, and certainly on the run.

27

That’s interesting. I had a similar experience last year coming out of the 100//100. As you may recall, I attempted 100 swim simultaneous with the 100/100 runs. Dr. TC and I both did the 100/100/100. At the end of it all, I had 100 runs for 450 miles, 75 swims for 140kscy. During that time, I rode my bike about once every 2 weeks.

Following that period, I returned to a balanced Tri program. Initially, my FTP was down from 2018 peak by 10%. Within 4 weeks I my FTP was equal to 2018, and 4 weeks after that it was 10% over 2018 and my all-time high (for an old dude).

I didn’t connect dots to the swim, but rather assumed it was cross-over from all the running. Perhaps it was more “both” than I assumed. Hmmmm…

28

Everyone knows you have to swim more period, but do you think most triathletes realistically swim 5x.per week 3k each session while doing bike run in a race build? Do you even do that?

Consistency and volume are critical but the far.more relevant and useful question is how you fit that into a plan of swim bike run year round consistently.

I haven’t gone as far down the rabbit hole as Dev. However, I also haven’t been restricted like he has without another choice.

However, during the winter I generally do 5-6x swims, 6-7x runs…and almost no biking. Swims are almost all USRPT style which is not unlike what is being described here. 20-50x 25y, 50y, 75y, 100y, or 150y…all on 20s rest. The only drills I might do in a brief warmup are ones given to me by swim coach to fix one thing or another. Overall, much like what is described in the article except lower in volume.

After March rolls around I transition to a bike focus, and drop the swim and runs back to 4x. Once the bike is where I want it, I return to a balanced program and start focusing on race specifics…sometimes I’ll rotate back through another set of focus blocks (swim, then run, then bike for maybe 4-6 weeks). I don’t race much in the spring/summer and generally only race in the fall.

I haven’t really experienced swim impacting bike/run. But, I DO have issues with bike/run intensity impacting swim progress. Eventually the swim plateaus in the context of run and bike intervals.

29

I don’t think anyone has really mentioned this from Sutton’s article: he says there’s too much drill and clock-watching work going on. Drills can help with form, but people can get stuck doing too much drill work. Drills are done at low intensity, which doesn’t translate to intensity needed in races. Drills are often done incorrectly, and many people don’t even know what a drill is for, and just slog through drills, mailing in the effort. There’s a (limited) place for drills, but real improvement comes with reps at intensity and duration.

Intensity training has always been important. There are different approaches today, highlighting the importance: HIIT, USRPT, etc.

Really, just swim. Swim fast. You can’t swim/bike/run fast unless you swim/bike/run fast.

Now, in Northern hemisphere winter is a great time to get in the pool more often. 5x weekly until March, then 4x through May as you pick up opportunities to be outside running and cycling. Swim fast 1000-3000’s on Saturday mornings.

30

wanna get faster? 120x50 on 1:00 is all you need. Do that every day and you’ll improve (read the article though, there’s some twists)
https://www.trisutto.com/…-to-swim-improvement
(Just to get it out of the way, I’m in no way a fan of Sutton). I came across this through my fb feed, and it looks like sound advice.
If you’re limited to a 60min swim, just go through the set once. I’d also argue that it doesn’t quite meet the needs of modern sprinters with the importance of the underwaters.

Jason - Actually, nowhere in the article does Sutton say that his athletes actually do this 60 x 50 m set with all four strokes and all the various sprinting requirements; he is simply telling the story of this very successful swimming club from 45 yrs ago who trained via this method. If you click on the links in the first line of the article, you’ll see how he and his athletes select their fav sets. In “Selecting Swim Intervals”, he lists three examples, Mary Beth Ellis who likes 200 x 25 m, Nicola Spirig who likes 100 x 50 m, and then Daniella Ryf who likes 400s with the pull buoy. In “What’s the best swim training mix?”, he discusses four diff types of workouts.

31

You can’t swim/bike/run fast unless you swim/bike/run fast.

I couldn’t help but laugh at this given the thread I started on things you purportedly must do in triathlon. Regardless, I just disagree with this idea, and I’m sure I’m not alone in having the experience of being able to go “fast” without training “fast”.

32

wanna get faster? 120x50 on 1:00 is all you need. Do that every day and you’ll improve (read the article though, there’s some twists)
https://www.trisutto.com/…-to-swim-improvement
(Just to get it out of the way, I’m in no way a fan of Sutton). I came across this through my fb feed, and it looks like sound advice.
If you’re limited to a 60min swim, just go through the set once. I’d also argue that it doesn’t quite meet the needs of modern sprinters with the importance of the underwaters.

Jason - Actually, nowhere in the article does Sutton say that his athletes actually do this 60 x 50 m set with all four strokes and all the various sprinting requirements; he is simply telling the story of this very successful swimming club from 45 yrs ago who trained via this method. If you click on the links in the first line of the article, you’ll see how he and his athletes select their fav sets. In “Selecting Swim Intervals”, he lists three examples, Mary Beth Ellis who likes 200 x 25 m, Nicola Spirig who likes 100 x 50 m, and then Daniella Ryf who likes 400s with the pull buoy. In “What’s the best swim training mix?”, he discusses four diff types of workouts.

Yeah? I never said that he did. Like I said, the point isn’t really about the specific workout. The real point he’s making is that there isn’t any real secret. You can get very fast on a very basic workout structure. Show up, know what you’re trying to accomplish, and do the work. Then do that the next day, and the next…

I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum in that I almost never repeat the same workout. But the effect is similar to what the coach was referring to when he talked about not timing any of the repeats during practices. In my case, times aren’t directly comparable from day to day, they’re more of a general guide, so there’s no getting overly obsessive about them. In fact these days in most repeats I won’t even look at the time. Just pay attention to effort level.

Of course, a more complicated structure can work too. The main point is that you don’t necessarily ‘need’ it to be complicated, and you definitely don’t need to spend lots of time with slow drills.

33

I’ll lay better than even odds he just made up this anecdote. Or perhaps equally likely, based it on a real-life experience with a coach that had a keep-it-simple philosophy, but wildly exaggerated the specifics n order to make his point. Kinda like click-bait… Sutton’s posts seem to be a really strange mixture of wisdom and nonsense.

I do apparently fall into the category of “over-analytical” amateur, although I don’t spend much of my time doing drills and my swim training is dominated by intervals. I do have one of those “wrist computer screens”, but I only use it on my solo swim workouts and not in master’s workouts. At least for cycling, being analytical has served me well and I massively over-achieve relative to my very modest FTP and W/Kg, thanks to that technical focus. But I’m old so improving my FTP is a daunting task, and the technical aspect of cycling is fun and entertaining for me.

I’m sure a lot of people respond well to Sutton’s old-school, tough-guy, my-way-or-the-highway attitude, whether they’re his athletes or just reading his blog posts for tips. As for me, as an older athlete doing this for fun, it’s an attitude with little appeal for me.

34

I actually like this workout on the trainer too…50 seconds off, 10 seconds off…allows you to do a lot of mileage above FTP.

Today I will do this

40 min warmup run ending with 20x50 seconds acceleration, 10 second cruisetrainer 10 mi warmup, then 30x 50 seconds on, 10 second resthead to pool and do 60x50 alternating free and 3 strokes.

so overall I’ll do 110x 50’s.

After the breast stroke legs I’ll barely get a few seconds of rest, but I should make the interval time.

Dev

35

Maybe a relevant question to the topic: what is that critical weekly volume to create sustainable improvements for a typical AG triathlete without a competitive swimming background?

36

My response can also be a 1 liner - no shit.

That’s basically the program for any good high school swim team. Practically anyone will get good at it if the kid sticks with the program.

But for the age group triathletes, swimming 2 hours per day 5 days a week and then do b/r and then do life stuff like holding onto jobs and marriages, and maybe, just maybe not sucking at relationships?

Might as well tell them to get faster parents.

37

I actually like this workout on the trainer too…50 seconds off, 10 seconds off…allows you to do a lot of mileage above FTP.

Today I will do this

40 min warmup run ending with 20x50 seconds acceleration, 10 second cruisetrainer 10 mi warmup, then 30x 50 seconds on, 10 second resthead to pool and do 60x50 alternating free and 3 strokes.

so overall I’ll do 110x 50’s.

After the breast stroke legs I’ll barely get a few seconds of rest, but I should make the interval time.

Dev

Well I go the run and bike legs done. On the bike leg I was alternating between 225 to 240W and the next one was 260-280W. I was trying g to simulate alternating swim intervals doing free and stroke. Then after lunch I went to the pool and some of the swim studs from one of the local clubs were there so I corralled them into alternating 50’s stroke and free. We chose an interval of 70 seconds so that the legs could all be quality. These guys were pretty fast so I was hanging on for dear life as the last man in the lane. But since I do enough of the other strokes as the set went on I was doing better and better.

I closed it off with a solid continuous 400IM.

I will make sure I do this a few times per week. I believe I would have been find on 60 seconds but breast to free would be pretty limited rest.

Oh and I finished with final 50 as 25m underwater dolphin to the other side and 25 free return. I almost feel like a real swimmer as I one upped the swim studs who did not take the bait on that final 50m!!!

38

If we’re dealing with triathletes (not the top swim squad folks in his article), you could take his methodology and simplify it even more -

Show up for swim practice 5 days per week, 2 hrs per day. 10hrs/wk should get you into the front of the triathlon pack after a few years, and if you’ve got any sort of natural talent for it, you’ll likely be FFOP with that kind of volume!

There’s also going to be some serious self-selection in that Newcastle group. How many kids do you know of as well as their parents who are going to commit to 2 hrs/day, 5 days/wk, with NO EXCUSES, if they are joe-average talent? (And I’m not talking joe-average compared to their competitive swim peers, I’m talking joe-average compared to Mr. Everyman, which is the talent pool most AG triathletes are dealing with.) I was a top violinist in the country in my youth, did Juillliard music school, and 5 days a week of ‘must-be-there’ practice at a facility would have been a no-go even for me back then!

Not saying his approach wouldn’t work (swimming 10hrs+/wk with lots of intensity and quality will always work for AGers!), but I’d be a lot more impressed if such a plan of nothing but 50s on the clock would work for the typical AG triathlete who is lucky to swim more than 4hrs/wk. In particular, I’d be impressed if you could cut that down to 2-3 hrs/wk and outperform other swimmers of same ability who are doing 5-6 hrs/wk, just because the regimen of those 50s is so good.

5 days per week and 2 hours per day for triathlete?! That’s marathon swimming training for me. How can one still trains for bike and run with this insane amount of swim training? I am having difficulty getting to 3 runs per week for my half marathon when I still haven’t reached 2 hours per day swimming for 5 days a week yet (although I have longer OW swims on the weekend especially in winter, but note that I only swim and run but not bike)!

Also, 2 hours a session is so tiring if done consecutive days. I’m starting to do this kind of volume in the recent months but it is only possible for me when the pool is cool enough and I gradually built up to it over the year.

39

Who said anything about that volume for triathletes?

40

You did!!

wanna get faster? 120x50 on 1:00 is all you need. Do that every day and you’ll improve (read the article though, there’s some twists)

Surely, you realize this is a lot of volume for a non-swimmer who is trying to train two other events.