Swimming like a swimmer, a waste?

Triathlon Forum
1

So I’ve been in masters swim for a couple of weeks now. Most of what the coach is correcting, or trying to correct, with my stroke has to do with my kick. My kick A) sucks and B) I don’t do much of it.

She wants me to do a constant kick throughout the stroke, I usually have a kick/kick on with one stroke, pause and kick/kick with the other stroke.

Anyway this brought me to a bigger picture. Assuming you’re not a good swimmer, assuming you’re in a situation to be “coached” by swimmers and assuming you’re mainstay is triathlon, does it make sense to do all of the “swimmer stuff”.

Seems to me that things like kicking, breaststroke, backstroke, flipturns etc etc will all be beneficial for “swimming” but may not make you a better triathlon swimmer. On the flip side, being a better “swimmer” may end up making you swim with better people and over the long run a better swimmer and triathlon swimmer.

In short, I’m just wondering of putting the effort into swimming “like a swimmer” is worth it or not.

~Matt

2

I have seen this question asked a number of times in different forms. improving your kick and learning the other strokes will allow you to have better feel for the water, more stability in the water, more confidence in the water. all of which will contribute to a faster triathlon swim - especially in a mass start scenario. This is true with out even going to the direct benefits to your standalone swim time.

3

I would say yes. Here are my reasons.

Even though becoming a ‘faster’ swimmer is going to have a seemingly small impact on overall times in races you will see a lot of intangable benifits. Mostly I’ve been looking at the most recent IM RRs from FL and it seems that the ‘good’ swimmers had a much better race than the others. They did not have to deal with all of the conjestion on the bike, they got out of the water feeling fresh, they were able to avoid th elbows/kicks of the middle of the pack swimmers, and they did not injest half of the gulf setting up a better bike/run. Perhaps becoming faster in the water is not the point, maybe it should be seen as becoming Stronger.

More and more it seems to me that the swim can be the most important leg of an IM, not the least.

4

I am starting to agree with this as well. I looked back at my past races and the best races I had I did a lot of swimming during training. I recently joined a Master’s team as well and my running seems to be improving without much mileage logged on the pavement.

5

if your swimming is poor or weak - swimming like a swimmer will obviously help more than hurt - the problem as I see it is there is a tipping point once you become more capable at swimming

pure competitive swimmers training is fairly different than what I believe triathlete swim training should be - problem is most swim coaches don’t know this and most triathlete coaches have the least knowledge about swim coach training

having been a competitive AG/College swimmer and having coached AG kids through College and now having 23 years tri experience - a current swim coach/triathlete and I are putting together a 5 month swim lesson/training program that is geared-taylored ONLY for triathletes - it will combine stroke instruction, video and work outs - should be interesting to see how this all turns out for our participants
.

6

Lets see, I have been doing Masters swimming for 2 months now. Had one of the faster guys tell me that I have gotten faster since I started. Made my day. :o)

We have yet to do anything with kicking. I asked the coach about doing 2 beat stuff, and her opinion is it did not make that much difference. Now, we do kicking stuff about every day. I will do with a board, and without. I will do some with fins, and some on my back. I just see all of this stuff making me stronger and more flexible for health.

Most of what we do is free style, but I enjoying mixing with other stuff. By doing this, I have found I am actually a pretty good back stroker. Whats been fun is as I practice more, I am getting better. I love the coordination aspects of trying to learn to swim. And since I am so bad, I have no where to go but up. So far, my best 100yard time is 1:18. Did a 14.2 in the 25yard yesterday which I was happy with.

I also have met a lot of great folks which I enjoy seeing every morning before work.

So, if I stay healthy, will see if any of this effort helps in my races next season. I needed a break from total bike/run focus anyways. Three weeks to the marathon so then I can kick my running back some and let the knees rest.

Dave

7

“And since I am so bad, I have no where to go but up.”

That’s me to. Time being a major factor in my life however I don’t want to spend my time doing stuff that is not all that effecient towards improvement of the end result. Also could be I am complete crap at kicking and am having an AWEFUL time trying to do what the coach is asking.

~Matt

8

No, it’s not a waste.

You run like a runner… and bike like a cyclist… so swim like the rest of us fish!

9

One more thing to add. I know that a lot of triathletes have the mindset in the pool that “I don’t kick/flipturn/bilateral breath/etc. in a race, why should I do it in a pool?” the answer is the same for any other dicipline. These activities all come together to improve efficiency. In fact, i think that effciency is MORE important in swimming than in any other dicipline.

Really, you don’t do 400 repeats running in a tri, but that does not stop everyone from using them as a trianing aid.

10

“You run like a runner… and bike like a cyclist… so swim like the rest of us fish!”

But that’s the thing, we don’t really. We don’t do the mileage of a runner or the “Long runs” of runner. We are probably pretty close on the cyclist thing, and overall no where near on the swim.

OTOH I’d guess, really don’t know, if we were able to run like a runner, bike like a biker and swim like a swimmer it woudl be a worthy goal.

~Matt

11

“So I’ve been in masters swim for a couple of weeks now.”

You may want to give more time. It is a technique sport, it takes time.

"being a better “swimmer” may end up making you swim with better people and over the long run a better swimmer"

Being a be better swimmer will make you swim faster and/or make you less tired when you get out of the water.

So yes swimming like a swimmer is not a waste, unless you are in the 45-49 age group, then yes it is a waste.

12

<< So far, my best 100yard time is 1:18. >>

<< Did a 14.2 in the 25yard >>

<< And since I am so bad, I have no where to go but up >>

Yeah, you are f’n terrible. Pathetic. Why don’t you just give it up already? :wink:

(this coming from a rock who has yet to break 1:50 for 100m)

13

I do thank my parents. :o)

Dave

14

I have noticed my runs the last few races have seems to one some of best. These have all happened since I started swimming full time. Will see how I do in the marathon in 3 weeks after 3 months of swimming.

Dave

15

add another vote to the swim like a swimmer side…

Let me ask you…do you do any drill work, hill repeats, intervals, tempo work on the bike and run?? I’m guessing the answer is yes. So why not in the pool??

I think those that say ‘I don’t want to do flip turns, do stroke work, etc in the pool because they aren’t used in the race’ is because for those that don’t have a swimming background…it forces them to get out of their comfort zone. But that’s how we improve.

Almost forgot to add…I started swimming more frequently about 6 weeks ago (shortly after my knee surgery). I did a 400 free all out in 4:51. Since then I’ve been doing a lot of stroke work (40-50% of my workouts are non-free), kick sets and drills. This morning I swam a 4:41.

16

Re: the kick, I coach a number on beginning triathlon swimmers and a number of them have kicking issues that mess with the balance of the stroke and their body rotation. So yeah, I think it’s important to have a good kick. OTOH, I don’t think it is imperiative to have a 6-beat kick, a 2-beat is more than adequate for triathlon if that is what one is more comofortable with.

To the orignal question, is swimming like a swimmer a waste? No, but with the caveat that one should swim like a distance swimmer. ie. lots of long repeats with short rest, with some threshold type efforts also. Short fast swimming is a bit of a waste of time IMO.

17

So yes swimming like a swimmer is not a waste, unless you are in the 45-49 age group, then yes it is a waste.

Can you elaborate on that?

18

**So I’ve been in masters swim for a couple of weeks now. Most of what the coach is correcting, or trying to correct, with my stroke has to do with my kick. My kick A) sucks and B) I don’t do much of it. **

I would guess you and I are similarly situated with regard to swimming. Doug Stern has convinced me that a good kick is beneficial to your whole stroke. Without a good kick, I’m thinking that you’ve limited your upside (or made it more difficult to achieve) unnecessarily. Probably a poor analogy, but good runners run with their whole body and they make it look effortless. I think it’s probably more so with swimming as your feet not only provide propulsion, but also provide balance and completeness to your stroke. I’ve been spending the offseason improving my kick and how it all works into the whole stroke. When I can get it together I’m a much better swimmer. Now I just have to hold onto it for longer. It’s really just muscle memory and holding onto it while you’re fatigued. But, when it works, it makes swimming faster. And faster swimming is funner and I’m more likely to keep at it and feel like it’s worth pushing myself while doing it.

**She wants me to do a constant kick throughout the stroke, I usually have a kick/kick on with one stroke, pause and kick/kick with the other stroke. **

I believe Doug Stern has suggested a six-beat kick with your right foot giving a big kick as your right arm is extending … at least that’s how I understood it and what I’ve been practicing. Boy, when it works, it really works.

**Anyway this brought me to a bigger picture. Assuming you’re not a good swimmer, assuming you’re in a situation to be “coached” by swimmers and assuming you’re mainstay is triathlon, does it make sense to do all of the “swimmer stuff”. **

For me, I practice swimming exclusively in a pool. I find that I gain the most when swimming with the faster swimmers. And, not flipping makes me artificially slow versus the same group. Once you’ve conquered flip turns, it just becomes how you turn. Even though flip turns don’t benefit your open water triathlons, they don’t require a lot of maintenance. So, I would distinguish flip turns from the other “swimmer stuff,” like improving your backstroke, breaststroke, etc.

**On the flip side, being a better “swimmer” may end up making you swim with better people and over the long run a better swimmer and triathlon swimmer. **

With regard to freestyle, I think that’s right. Anyway, best wishes with whatever you decide.

20

My $.02

Working on keeping a steady kick has helped me with swimming straighter and getting rid of the scissor kick while breathing.

Breaststroke, backstroke and butterfly have not helped me much with open water swimming (other than looking cool warming up with fly) but I believe the flipturns have helped my with confidence in holding my breath untill it is a good time to breath. Example - bumping into people, swimming though choppy waves, not getting a breath when turned and having to hold it for another cycle.

I have also found that starting a race with 3 or 4 fly strokes gets you more room for the first 20 or 30 seconds of the swim. :slight_smile:

Swimming with real swimmers is a source of inspiration and knowledge that I wouldn’t have access to while swimming alone. So to me, swimming like a swimmer is beneficial.

jaretj

21

I was in the airport security line yesterday with the ASU swim team. All I know is that if I got to swim with those girls on a regular basis, I’d gladly train like a swimmer (and would probably give up biking & running too). :slight_smile: