Is this logical? It seems to me that if you spend the vast majority of your time on interval/speed work (with very limited breaks), then your endurance is almost incidental. For example, I did 3.5k this morning made up of 50s, 100s, and a few 200s. Breaks were in the 5-10 second range, and I doubt that my HR dropped below 70% for the better part of an hour. If I were to swim a straight 3500 every week, I wouldn’t get appreciably faster from it. Like any good lemming, I follow my training plan (for the most part), but it feels kind of useless on the days where I’m doing mostly 400s or longer.
Is this logical? It seems to me that if you spend the vast majority of your time on interval/speed work (with very limited breaks), then your endurance is almost incidental. For example, I did 3.5k this morning made up of 50s, 100s, and a few 200s. Breaks were in the 5-10 second range, and I doubt that my HR dropped below 70% for the better part of an hour. If I were to swim a straight 3500 every week, I wouldn’t get appreciably faster from it. Like any good lemming, I follow my training plan (for the most part), but it feels kind of useless on the days where I’m doing mostly 400s or longer.
If you are training for a century ride, do you only do hill repeats and interval rides of 5-10 miles at a stretch and then stop? If you go for a long run of 10 miles, do you stop every mile to rest?
John
It depends on your definition of endurance. In real swimming, there is a vast difference between sprint training and distance training…just like there is for runners on the track. But if you have nothing to begin with and swim more, be it distance or sprint, you will get more endurance.
Yes.
You are exactly correct. Intervals are the way to go and it is better to do many shorter swims at a high effort than fewer longer swims at a lower effort. (Of course, the it would be good to do longer swims at a high effort too but you have to walk before you can run).
At any given time in the US, there are approximately 300,000 people actively participating in competitive age group, high school and college swimming. (That number does not include Masters swimmers). There is a huge, huge body of knowledge about how to train swimmers that is being applied, every day, in thousands of pools around the world. World records continuously fall, but more important for triathletes, competitive swimmers of all abilities almost without exeption, get faster as they continue to train year to year. At this point, there really is no secret how to improve at swimming. Its just that many triathletes just won’t listen. While there is some debate at the edges over nuances and certainly the lingo changes over time, one basic constant of swim training at all levels for at least the last 40 - 50 years has been the use of intense intervals as the fundemental basis of training.
Why some triathletes and those advicing triathletes think they can come up with their own system for swim improvement is beyond me. Yes, do intervals. Do them at a very high effort level. Do as much yardage as you can as often as you can. These are the keys to swimming faster.
The reason that I specifically pointed to swimming is that it is the only discipline (of the three) where you can realistically do intervals for a majority of the actual race distance (i.e. 3500yd is around 82% of 2.4 miles). To counter-point, what would be more productive, doing 4 hours worth of 2-mile repeats with a 30 second rest or 4 hours of straight riding? You’ll be spending more than 90% of your time at or above your long ride aerobic pace, but you’re building speed to boot. That’s probably not realistic for most folks, but that’s the comparison you’re drawing. And just for the record, it is a very common distance running technique to include periodic walk breaks during a long training run (though I personally can’t stand to do so).
The reason that I specifically pointed to swimming is that it is the only discipline (of the three) where you can realistically do intervals for a majority of the actual race distance (i.e. 3500yd is around 82% of 2.4 miles). To counter-point, what would be more productive, doing 4 hours worth of 2-mile repeats with a 30 second rest or 4 hours of straight riding? You’ll be spending more than 90% of your time at or above your long ride aerobic pace, but you’re building speed to boot. That’s probably not realistic for most folks, but that’s the comparison you’re drawing. And just for the record, it is a very common distance running technique to include periodic walk breaks during a long training run (though I personally can’t stand to do so).
AFAIK, that’s for people that can’t run the distance straight.
And, the reason for my post, is that yes, you can and should do way more intervals in the pool (approaching race distance) than you would in the other two disciplines, but you need the higher yardage sets with the occasional full distance swim thrown in.
John
Long interval run training can be very effective. Just as effective as long interval swim training. You just need to be patient and do lots of them intervals. It is almost as boring as indoor cycling, but it does work. Most athletes have a problem with long continuous swimming because there technique falls apart after 500 metres or so. I have this problem so my long swim training is always something like 6*500 metres instead of 3 km continuous swimming. I end the last 500 metres with a better technique compared to a continuous swim.
Swimming is different than the other 2 sports, so you really cannot compare the type of training that is optimal for sucess. And yes, interval training is the way to go, but just be aware that if you are doing 100’s or 200’s, and taking 5 to 10 seconds rest only, that in effect is a distance set. Doesnt matter what the distance is, it is the rest inbetween that really matters. IF you do 12X 100 with 5 seconds rest and 3X 400 on the 8 minutes, it is the shorter distance that is the endurance set, and the longer one is your quality set…See the difference???
Only in swimming will the top athletes train for up to 5 hours a day for a 1 to 4 minute race. Conversely, runners will train 1 1/2 to 2 hours a day for a 1 to 2+ hour event, and cyclists will train 3 to 6 hours for 4 to 8 hour races. This all only makes sennse when you factor in the heavier training loads swimming offers athletes, without injuring them. Cycling would be next because of the bike, but you can only put in so many hours regardless of the sport, and that it is for most sports, 3 to 6 hours a day on average, even if your races take longer… And running of course has the gravity affect on the body, so it is the lowest as far as training hours go…
3500 straight doesn’t have to be at slow, steady pace–use variable intensity. Don’t forget the neuro component of your training which should matched to your target event. If you only do shorter intervals (which should be part of every plan), you are also training your brain to tell your muscles to expect a break every couple minutes.
Look up the map for your goal event and break your continuous long swim according to the segments between buoys. EX: 400 hard, then settle into 2500 easy with 100 fast every 500 or so. This will teach your brain to be ready for race day–chaotic start, followed by easy and efficient with the occastional burst to get around someone.
And just for the record, it is a very common distance running technique to include periodic walk breaks during a long training run (though I personally can’t stand to do so).
AFAIK, that’s for people that can’t run the distance straight.
All that proves is that you don’t know very far at all.
Steve
The reason that I specifically pointed to swimming is that it is the only discipline (of the three) where you can realistically do intervals for a majority of the actual race distance (i.e. 3500yd is around 82% of 2.4 miles). To counter-point, what would be more productive, doing 4 hours worth of 2-mile repeats with a 30 second rest or 4 hours of straight riding? You’ll be spending more than 90% of your time at or above your long ride aerobic pace, but you’re building speed to boot. That’s probably not realistic for most folks, but that’s the comparison you’re drawing. And just for the record, it is a very common distance running technique to include periodic walk breaks during a long training run (though I personally can’t stand to do so).
AFAIK, that’s for people that can’t run the distance straight.
Thanks for clearing that up. I can’t wait until I see my running group next Monday - especially the ultramarathoner. I’m going to ask him to bring his finisher medals so that I can strip them from his neck and piss on them. After all, he takes a 30 second walk break in between each of his 6:15 splits on long training runs. The nerve of a 50 y/o man and his uber successful training strategy. Ten minutes of walking and he still finishes the 20-miler 4 minutes ahead of me!? I’ll take comfort in the fact that he’s a cheater.
I think Devlin(?sp) hit a key point. Clearly the cyclists and runners are not training properly. I think the 3 sports are more similar than different. Granted swimming is a technique sport while the other 2 are not really but I bet if you trained cycylists/runners like swimmers - they’d be faster…albeit you’d have to start young - train consistently year round with a gradual progression. You would likely see more injuries. Can you imagine a 3 hour track work-out - maybe 20ish miles - most of it running 400’s-800’s in 1-3 minutes…with short breaks in between. You’d either be really fast or really injured…
Dave
Maybe your definition of a “long training run” is different than his? A long training run is just that: a long run. It can be tempo, LSD, or fartlek, but it’s a run. Taking a break between fixed-length segments, no matter the length of the entire workout, sounds like an interval workout.
Thanks for clearing that up. I can't wait until I see my running group next Monday - especially the ultramarathoner. I'm going to ask him to bring his finisher medals so that I can strip them from his neck and piss on them. After all, he takes a 30 second walk break in between each of his 6:15 splits on long training runs. The nerve of a 50 y/o man and his uber successful training strategy. Ten minutes of walking and he still finishes the 20-miler 4 minutes ahead of me!? I'll take comfort in the fact that he's a cheater.
Wow. Sensitive much?
20 miles on 6:45 is an interval set. It’s a hell of an interval set, but it’s still an interval set. Does he never do any long runs straight through, or are they all with walk breaks?
John
the reason that you are gaining endurance is because of the amount of rest that you get. since you are doing short rest sets you will gain more endurance over time. if you did 50’s and 100’s on 5 minutes as fast as you can it will just work on speed and not actually increase your endurance that much
burnman: your signature is hilarious.
Thanks for clearing that up. I can’t wait until I see my running group next Monday - especially the ultramarathoner. I’m going to ask him to bring his finisher medals so that I can strip them from his neck and piss on them. After all, he takes a 30 second walk break in between each of his 6:15 splits on long training runs. The nerve of a 50 y/o man and his uber successful training strategy. Ten minutes of walking and he still finishes the 20-miler 4 minutes ahead of me!? I’ll take comfort in the fact that he’s a cheater.
Wow. Sensitive much?
20 miles on 6:45 is an interval set. It’s a hell of an interval set, but it’s still an interval set. Does he never do any long runs straight through, or are they all with walk breaks?
John
Hah, I’m the 21st century sensitive male role model. Don’t take my volleying too seriously, it’s really just playful banter. Anytime I’m with the guy, doing 15+ mi runs, he’s taking walk breaks. I assume those are his long days. But honestly, those could be his short (interval) days. He’s one of those quiet, recluse types that only seems to come out of the woodwork on Mondays and race days.
just be aware that if you are doing 100’s or 200’s, and taking 5 to 10 seconds rest only, that in effect is a distance set
Yup, it’s a threshold set.
Far difference from true SPEED swimming which, say, 4-6 x 100 on 6:00 or so all out and off the blocks
Only in swimming will the top athletes train for up to 5 hours a day for a 1 to 4 minute race. Conversely, runners will train 1 1/2 to 2 hours a day for a 1 to 2+ hour event, and cyclists will train 3 to 6 hours for 4 to 8 hour races. This all only makes sennse when you factor in the heavier training loads swimming offers athletes, without injuring them. Cycling would be next because of the bike, but you can only put in so many hours regardless of the sport, and that it is for most sports, 3 to 6 hours a day on average, even if your races take longer… And running of course has the gravity affect on the body, so it is the lowest as far as training hours go…
You can add to that, that most swimmers are doing 3-7 events in a meet as well, plus swim training includes all four strokes, kick drills, form drills, etc. Most of the swimmers on our team had at least 4 events, and the relayers usually had 5-7 total events.
John