Swimming breathing addendum

Triathlon Forum
1

I would like to thank all of you for responding to my question. As you can see everyone has a point of few. You are all breathing when you swim.

A little history - For many years we were taught to swim with the S stroke. Your hand entered the water, pressed down and out then in and up. Your shoulder dropped into the water to help facilitate a strong pull. You opened your hips at the back end of the stroke and flicked water back. There was only one breathing option - back end. As you finished your stroke, your hips were up and you took a breathe.

New stroke - Many swimmers are now incorporating a flatter stroke with the hips leading the action. Coaches debate whether summation of forces is applicable to swimming. Whether it works or not swimmers are following the sequence of hip-shoulder-elbow-hand. If you initiate your stroke with your hip, your shoulder rises above the water and you breathe at the beginning of the stroke. Turning your head to breathe is linked to initial shoulder rotation.

Last week I watched my swimmers swim length after length. I was appalled at what I saw. I videotaped them and showed them that even though they thought they were breathing at the beginning of the stroke they in fact turned their heads very late in the stroke. I stopped practice and asked each person to swim a length of the pool and notice the extended arm on the breathing side. There was nothing special they had to notice but I wanted them to be aware that it was there. The next length I asked them to imagine that the word HIP was written on the palm of that hand. When they were about to pull back they were instructed to flex that wrist, start the hip moving and IMMEDIATELY take a breathe. The reality was that by the time their mouths cleared the water their hand was under their shoulders. They were all breathing earlier in the stroke and then head rotation fit in with shoulder rotation and did not cause any lateral movement of the hips and legs. I asked them to do the same sequence and breathe on the other side. The mechanics were exactly the same.

Keep in mind that just as you have a point of view, this is mine and I could be way off course.

DougStern

2

Great analysis Doug.

I am from the school of “S-pull”, and was taught it from a very early age, which was crucial for shoulder strength when I was older. I think it help tremendously in my breastroke as well, since the hand movement was similar, just exaggerated.

I can remember countless 25s doing “sculling” drills, wondering what the heck this was doing for me…years later I knew when being filmed underwater, and seeing the efficiencythat it build.

The “wiggle” of the hips and legs (lateral movement) is overlooked by most, but I think you hit the nail on the head as to its cause.

One last comment on summation of forces in swimming. I mentioned in a previous post, the “medium” in which swimming is done (water) greatly amplifies efficiency, or lack there of. I think this has a impact on summation of forces, as the force magnitude would increase greatly.

…at least that’s what I think

-bcreager

3

B,

When we are dealing with water, at the surface there is an inverse cube law which states that “as you double the speed there is 8 times the resistance.” When you kick on the surface of the water your legs lock your body and allow you to summate.

DougStern

4

That sounds way too early for me to do. I think I would be getting a nice mouthful of water.

But then, when I started, I was breathing as late as possible. I wouldn’t have been able to breathe as early as I do now.

The HIP on the palm… I can do that with a marker. Do you advocate keeping that arm out there straight, parallel to the surface, and beginning the pull from there (with the flex of the wrist)? Or rather keep the elbow up, bend at the elbow and get that cool Thorpe/Phelps-like vertical forearm and then pull back?

5

Aztec,

Just imagine the word hip is on your hand. Do not actually write it there.

Your head will actually roll with your shoulders.

As you flex your wrist you are seting up your stroke like Thorpe/Phelps. Then start turning your head to breathe. It seems really early and it isn’t.

Your opposite hand will be just entering the water in line with your elbow if there is no flick.

DougStern

6

Doug, What do you mean by “start the hip moving”? Your suggestions in all your posts have really made me start to try to think about what I’m doing while I swim instead of mindless up and back, but I’m having a trouble getting that part. Did I miss that in an earlier post?

Thanks,

Neil

7

sorry for the ignorance, but what are sculling drills…new to swimming.

Matt

8

B,

When we are dealing with water, at the surface there is an inverse cube law which states that “as you double the speed there is 8 times the resistance.” When you kick on the surface of the water your legs lock your body and allow you to summate.

DougStern

Mr Stern Sir

That last sentence is pure gold. For nearly three years I have been foolishly dismissing the importance of a swim kick, for three main reasons…

a. triathletes were alleged to not need one;

b. my races are all wetsuit ones, so my hips float anyway;

c. most important - **I couldn’t do one in sync with my stroke, and like most things in life, because I couldn’t do it, I told myself it didn’t matter. Fool. **

But in the last 6 weeks or so, since I started to pay attention to my hip roll in sync with my stroke, courtesy of one D. Stern, NYC swim coach guru, suddenly my legs are in the right position to kick as I swim. I used to thrash my legs with little or no rhythym, and this was tiring so then I would stop using them, and then my bottom half would sink and I would go slower. And slower. I used to love my pull bouy because I could knock out 1:50 100s with it no problem. Without it I would be about 2:05.

Now that my kick feels more measured my stroke has a platform. I feel a ton stronger in the water - I actually feel my lower body as steady, not snaking about. So my upper body can get on with pulling me through the water. Today I pulled off a 100m TT in 1:32 (scm), no flip turns, and a 50 in 45secs. Now, this is slow for many of you, sure, but bearing in mind that my first half ironman swim took me about 50mins, that is a sign of good progress.

So, all you non swimmers out there - having a kick that is in sync with your stroke is crucial. The speed and power of your kick matters not nearly so much as the rhythym.

Trust me on this. Or rather, trust Doug.

:))))

9

Old Man,

You initiate your stroke by rotating your hip upward which in turn starts your shoulder then elbow and finally hand.

DougStern

10

So Doug, forgive me for being denser than me strapped to a lead vest in a pool, but when you say “flex that wrist” you mean hold it stiff, right?

And when you say pull back, you mean at the beginning of the catch, ie as soon as the arm is done reaching fwd and ready to snap back?

I’ve been experimenting with more hip-initiation in my freestyle and it cause more loading on my shoulders. It’s partly why I have soreness in my left delt. Is this to be expected for a new swimmer like me?

11

flexing your wrist is placing 90 degress to the flow of water so tht yo can pull your body forward.

If your shoulders are getting sore you might not be easing into the stroke and be driving hard too soon.

As for getting rid of colds you probably are ot getting enough sleep.

DougStern

12

Morning Doug:

Here is weird quirk #2. After swim practice, I get small bruising/broken blood vessels slightly above my armpits on the inside of my biceps. I know it must be related to pulling because I first noticed it after water skiing where I am pulling strenuously. Ever seen this before?

13

Sculling is just using your hands and forearms to move you through the water. Almost like a “wax on wax off” sort of thing. Here is a good link that explains it way better then I could:

http://www.swimmingcoach.org/ALTST/9903/altst_9903-2.htm

be forewarned, when starting sculling…your forearms will BURN. You are using muscles that aren’t used much for all your foreward movement.

-bcreager

14

It’s interesting you relate breathing to the opposing arm position. I never thought of it that way. I always related it to the recovering arm position, particularly my right arm, since that’s the side I breathe on. After thinking about it, and I’ll have to get into the pool to confirm, I believe my breathing begins with my opposing arm’s pull, just after the catch. My catch is fairly short, my pull is long - just past the hip, but I have no hand flip and my recovery is very relaxed, high elbow, fingers just off the water surface. I have worked a few years changing from traditional ‘S’ pull to a straighter/deeper pull with a lot more body roll. My feet still scissor, but they’re high and I’m very comfortable going the distance - did a fitness test the other day - 2000 scy in 23 minutes, negative splitting each 500 yd segment.

Question for you: My hips are high in the water and my long distance kick is a 6 beat, modified - One major kick and two little kicks with each stroke. Like I said, I’m not really any faster with a wetsuit, but I use a DeSoto T1. When wearing it, I feel like my legs aren’t even in the water and much of my kick is only making so much whitewater and not helping to move me forward. Any thoughts on modifying the swim for wetsuits?

15

Doug,

I can’t where you mentioned it, but you were talking about a snorkel device to use in training to help keep the head still. I’m gonna try to find who makes one, and order one. My swimming is really improving and my form is coming around, but one thing I tend to do is move my head a little. I have a lot of body roll and sometimes I get lazy and move my head with my roll on non-breath strokes.

Is the type of thing I’d want to use 10% of the time, just to enforce the head still concept?

16

Last Tri,

This is a new one for me. When you find out please let me know.

DougStern

17

Halfspeed,

When you are wearing a wetsuit keep the kick narrow and definitely point your toes. The kick will not be propulsive and you want them for rhythm only. Pointing your toes keeps them out of the way.

Doug