Hi all,
Despite what some people might say I still think that you need to kick on the swim leg. I recently focused on my kicking, trying to synchronize the arm entry with the opposite leg. It shown me that this part of my swimming is out of control and that there might be a good chunk of time to be gained there. It appears that I randomly kick, parasiting the arm movements and throwing the body all over the place. So I tried a little drill, 1arm stroke/1 kick, I guess that’s what you call a 2 beats kick (am I right?). It was awful, but when I actually managed to time it correctly it felt pretty good, more fluid. Tried 4 kicks then, and it was a mess, I couldn’t even do it. So my question here for the swimmers are:
1- What is the correct timing for kicking with the opposite leg? When the hand enter the water, a little before, after?
2- What is the most desirable beat for long-distance triathlon? 2 beats, 4 beats? Should I even try 6 beats (is that even possible anyway?). Is it a personal preference?
3- Any particular drills for working on this? Or is it just a matter of finding out the correct rhythm with trial?
Sorry for the layman terms, but I hope it makes sense. Or mayber I am totally wrong about this. Thoughts?
I’m not really familiar with the ‘beat’ terminology.
I can say that I personally have found the most efficient use of my legs to be very minimal kicking (not no kicking, just minimal).
As for timing the kick, I think that besides moving you forward the kick only serves one other purpose…well 2…But if you are using the kick to keep your feet high in the water then you have a balance problem and need to work on body position…other than that the other use is to help propel the body roll to the other side.
You will always time that kick with the hip roll, and I think the hip roll should always be timed with the catch. But when that happens in regard to the recovering arm depends on how you are swimming. If swimming catch-up or front-quadrant it would be when that arm touches water. But it doesn’t directly relate to the recovering arm…just the catching arm.
At least that’s my novice take on it.
I am very interested in some expert response here…because I struggle with this also. I am a decent swimmer (HS swim team
and I’ve put up a 1:01 IM swim leg) but in training and racing i feel like my kick is randomly (un)coordinated with with my arms.
I shared a lane with a woman one time using what appeared to be a 2 beat kick and she looked both strong and efficient with
it…but when I tried to copy it I lost all my balance in the water. I am willing to practice it if there is some value there.
Anybody have theories on this? ST’ers will flood the server on any discussion on tire rolling resistance, someone has to
have a better reasoned theory on swim kicking than ‘just kinda let em dangle back there’.
Thanks
I’m not really familiar with the ‘beat’ terminology.
The way I understand it, it’s the number of kicks per arm cycle. So one pull, one kick, 2 kicks for a full cycle, so 2-beats. At least that’s the way I understand it.
The thing is, I am noticing now that if the timing is messed up, then your body balance is too and you can’t catch properly. So while what you are saying makes sense, it still don’t know how to approach it really.
What I realize is that if I got the idea right, then I need to unlearn my swimming stroke, and relearn with the correct timing. It will be a time consuming and frustrating process, so before going through that I wanted the ST opinion on whether or not I got the wrong idea, and if I should work towards a 2, 4, 6 beats or whatever.
for all practical purposes you can only have a 2 beat kick or a 6 beat kick. a 4 beat kick is just a combination of the two.
you have to kick at the same time you pull due to balance making it an odd number always. 1+1=2 beat, 3+3= 6, 1+3=4beat.
i used to use 6 back in highschool but now im just fine with a 2 beat kick. sure i cant go as fast in those 50s. but it does save energy cruising at 1 10 pace for a hundred.
**‘just kinda let em dangle back there’. **
Well that’s kind of my philosophy with regard to kicking. 
Seriously, I’ve tried incorporating more kicking in my swimming, but I can’t get much benefit from it. My kicking sucks horribly for some reason, so I tend to swim better with very minimal kicking. I am able to keep a good body position anyway, so I am probably close to a 2 beat kick, just to gie my legs something to do. I didn’t kick much at all when I swam in high school, and just kind of adapted to it, so that’s what tends to work best for me.
To the OP:
In terms of triathlon swimming, you’re probably best sticking with something like a 2 beat kick. Anything more could end up tiring your legs, and you can’t really go with anything less. A 6 beat kick is better for sprints in the pool, but the legs would get too tired over a long set.
I remember hearing somewhere that if you kick hard in a sprint set, kicking really only provides about 20% of your propulsion, while consuming about 60-80% of your energy. In my eyes, that’s energy that could be put to better use.
‘just kinda let em dangle back there’.
I always think of my kicking legs like willow branches.
You can have a 2, 4, 6 or 8 beat kick. In general sprinters have 6 and 8 beat kicks and distance swimmers have the 2 and 4 beat kicks. This is a generalization. I have been a distance swimmer all my life and have always had a 6 beat kick. I use the same kick for a 100 free or an IM swim. If you naturally swim with a 2 beat kick and it’s comfortable, go with it. It’s really hard and really uncomfortable to try and change how you naturally kick. (FWIW - My IM swims have been 53:00, 56:00 and 44:00 (B2B with current )
I do feel that it important to practice your kick. A strong kick helps lead to an efficient and balanced stroke.
Hi Mate,
If you want to learn how to time your kick, you have to treat the swim like music. First learn whole notes then half notes then quarter notes (2 beat kick, 4 beat, then 6, there’s also a 3+1 but we won’t get into that now) basically the most important thing in freestyle is long axis rotation with the hips turning in synch with the shoulders - when the two are out of synch you see “fishtailing” which is very inefficient. So if you have fins and a snorkel - something like the finis swimmers snorkel - you can work on the 2 beat kick by floating on your front side face down - and you’ll notice that when you kick down with you right leg, you right hip will move up - equal and opposite reaction - and same goes for the left - once you get that timing and roll your shoulders with your hips while keeping you head still!! - that is the hardest part actually - sort of like spotting the wall when you turn in ballet - don’t ask me how i know about ballet - but it is the same concept. After you have mastered the 2 beat - you can move on to the 4 same principle but now there are 3 kicks for every body roll with the first kick being the accent - again using a music analogy. But the first kick is the one that intiates the rotation and the 2 just enchance it. You can count it almost like a waltz. After you start to get it, then you can add the arms - but I would actually keep the snorkel on and use an underwater recovery so you can time your catch - you will also feel more of a catch my keeping you hands underwater. Then you can try it with one hand under and the other over and then finally regular freestyle with snorkel and then finally add in the breath. In terms of deciding what beat is most ideal for you, it will have to depend on your body type and how well you can propel yourself forward. For warming up and cooling down, the 2 beat uses the least amount of energy and oxygen - but it takes a certain body type and stroke to be able to race with it. Most distance swimmers use 4 or 3+1, but it’s best to test it experiment and see what works best. Also a good idea to see a qualified swim coach, do some video taping and or swimming in endless pool with a mirror.
I know it’s a some what loaded answer but I was someone who couldn’t swim 25yards straight and now in local races I am first out of the water. If you are ever in the NY/NJ area give me a shout we can have a look at your stroke.
cheers,
Arland
Thanks for great replies everybody, I will try and visualize these advices, and apply. What it tells me is that my impression based on what I read here and what I tried were correct, so I need to get to work. Thanks Arland for the offer, I would love to take it but I’m in Pennsylvania (Go Steelers I guess).
Coaching is out of the question for convenience/time/money reasons, I’m mostly by myself but try to not hammer my swim and focus on form and feel instead of sets. The hip part is actually the hardest part for me to figure out. As far as kick count goes, I see that I will have to go my way up and see what feels the most natural/efficient.
I only have an 1/2 IM swim so far, 33mn, so not a great swimmer, but I like the idea of getting out of the water ahead.
Don’t believe people who tell you that kick is not important. fact is, if you don’t do it correctly it can have a serious negative impact your performance. That said, there’s kicking effectively for Ian Thorpe and then there’s kicking effectively for a triathlete.
I know that you specifically asked about timing, but I think it’s worth addressing kick in general and what you’re trying to achieve with kick before coming back to timing.
Common mistakes with kicking…
Kicking to hard: You can use a LOT of energy kicking and unless your trying to be a word class pool swimmer kicking hard is likely to tire you out for minimal benefit.
Kicking too little: If you kick too little your legs will drag down pulling your hips down with them. Now, instead of moving smoothly on top of the water, you’re trying to drag your hips and legs through the water. It’s like swimming with a band on your legs. Additionally, kicking helps your core muscles keep you firm. If you don’t kick it’s much easier to end up like a snake through the water rather than a spear.
Bending knees too much: If you’re a really strong swimmer, a bit more knee bend is inevitable because of the force you’re putting into your kick. If you’re an average swimmer, you can bend your knees too much. This often combines with over rotating for a breath and leads to you wallowing from side to side (see above about looking like a snake, not a spear (trying to avoid a smutty joke but struggling).
Not pointing toes: This often goes hand in hand with knees bending too much. Obviously if your toes aren’t pointed then they’re not streamline and they’re creating drag. If you used to swim breastroke you’re particularly prone to this. Especially with recreational swimmers, you can nearly always pick if they swam breastroke in high school by looking at their freestyle kick.
So what do you want to do? For a triathlete, all you need to do is remember to point your toes and for your kick to be small and consistent. Pointing your toes streamlines your legs and a small / consistent kick will help keep your body position firm while keeping your legs and hips up. Also, thinking small will generally prevent over-bending of the knees.
How does this answer your question? If timing is an issue I would suggest that either you’re trying to kick to hard or you’re bending your knees too much. If you try to kick with a small and consistent action you legs will find a natural rhythm with your arms. You won’t have to think about it. For some people it will be a natural 2 beat, for some 4 for some 6. Don’t overthink it and it’ll come.
I am very interested in this topic. I paid way more attention at the masters swim I do tonight and noticed that my kick is all over the place, even though I am trying to focus on using the kick to drive the hip roll/rotation. Does anyone happen to have any good links/videos to see the various beats 2, 4, 6, 8, 3-1 in action to see how they go?
I’m no expert. And I’m no distance swimmer. But struggling with this myself recently I found a couple things helpful:
Do some kick drills. Forget about your stroke for a while and concentrate on the kick itself. How fast, from the hip, pointed toes - all that is a lot easier to decide and learn and practice when you’re only kicking. (BTW, try drills with and without a board, because without seems a lot more natural and powerful to me.)
When you swim again, instead of “timing” your kick with your stroke, feel how the kick effects your roll and how it leads to a nice long reach. For me, feeling the kick as sort of the beginning of the roll led to one of those wonderful “Ah hah!” moments.
What’s this kick driving the roll thing? In fact, what is the hip roll thing?
IMO your kick should stabilize you not cause you to roll. I used to work on keeping my hips facing the bottom. Hips face the bottom, face/head faces the bottom, shoulders rotate. This is the strongest position and when you break it (like to breath) you lose speed. When your hips roll its very likely that your core will slump and you’ll lose drive. Kicking helps hold you hips steady so they don’t roll as much. Some roll of the hips is inevitable (your hips will follow your shoulders a bit) but it’s not something you try for.
I’d be working on proper shoulder rotation and firm core held together with a small consistent kick.
mine are more like waterlogged oak tree branches!
(but I’m working on it)
My kicking is worse when I’ve been running and cycling a lot. But there are still some days when it’s just perfect.
I have 21 years of practice 
I don’t think you should worry about this. The kick in distance swimming is primarily used for stabilization in the water and you shouldn’t kick much during a triathlon. The best advice is to just let your body tell you when you should kick to stabilize. Stabilization is required for your body roll from one side to the other, and for breathing. I kick about 2-3 beats per stroke, just so I can turn my hips over for the stroke on the other side. But I do not think about the kick when I’m doing it.
The whole timing of kicking is some junk from the 70’s that no one does anymore. You can tell who grew up then because their strokes look crazy.
I have to say that pulling and body roll are what should concern you. There are repeated threads on ST for kicking and it’s not what you should be worried about. Anyone asking about kicking probably has a terrible stroke and/or body roll. So I encourage you to focus on your stoke technique and let your kick be dictated by that. At most, do a kicking drill: do catchup stroke for 500 yards, kicking hard during each stroke. I think you should do catchup as left arm down, right arm back for 100 yards and then alternate on every 5th lap (left and right, alternated one stroke each.) That should help you get a better feel of your kick and incorporate it with your pull.
What’s this kick driving the roll thing? In fact, what is the hip roll thing?
IMO your kick should stabilize you not cause you to roll. I used to work on keeping my hips facing the bottom. Hips face the bottom, face/head faces the bottom, shoulders rotate.
No that it’s it.
Have a look at this video and see how the hips roll with the shoulders.
I would not even think about kicking and beat of kick I just kick through stroke without stopping. It is not a hard kick just like others say “they sort of just dangle.” But a constant kick throughout stroke your rythm will follow. When I am sprinting then the kick gets very strong and hard. But I do not keep a beat or think about it. Thinking is overrated. Do not overthink and over anaylyze your stroke. I know a few people that do that and always leads to some apprehention before and during the swim. I swam competively since age 4 to 17 year round so it comes natural that is a big part.
its not hard to change your kick. i think 8 beat kicks are used strictly for 50s thats why no one talks about it.