I was going to determine my TP for the swim to focus on intervals and workouts and want to know what the best method. I warmed up swarm about 800 yds and did some 50’s picking up pace to ward end. Then did a twenty minute TT and counted laps and divided to determine TP.
Any suggestions?
We used to do 3K for time and figure from there. I’d say 30 minutes is probably going to be more acurate than 20 minutes would be if you don’t want to do the full 3K.
Yes. The standard is either a 3,000 yd time trial. Or 30 minute swim, keeping track of the total distance swam. I think it seems a bit long for some non-swimmers, so start with a 20 min TT, then move it up once you are able to.
20 to 30 minutes in duration… figure the distance that will get you there then shoot for the distance. Always easier to have a tangible finish line (2000y, 40k, 10k) then an arbitrary time goal.
Yes. The standard is either a 3,000 yd time trial. Or 30 minute swim, keeping track of the total distance swam. I think it seems a bit long for some non-swimmers, so start with a 20 min TT, then move it up once you are able to.
Standard if the swimmer is able to easily swim 30 minutes straight or 3000 yds straight. If they aren’t capable of that yet (And his screen name does indicate a duathlete), then a modified approach such as the 200/400 split maximals, or 3x300 sustained pace type tests might be more appropriate.
John
Thanks for the insight on TP. I was a duathlete that turned into a Triathlete. I compete in both events and find the swim to be my slowest discipline. My favorite distance is the half iron.
My coach always uses 1K TT swims as a test. They are done several times during the season. I guess if your only doing IM’s then maybe a longer test is in order. I know my T-pace off a 3K TT would be WAY slower than a 1K test though.
For the swimming challenged:
Total time for 10x100m, :10 rest between each, subtract the 90s of rest, divide by 10.
I’ve been using a critical pace test, similar to the 200/400 max test Devlin mentioned.
Just this morning I happened to be reading a review presentation on the use of critical velocity.
http://www.coachesinfo.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=198&ItemId=68
We used to do 3K for time and figure from there. I’d say 30 minutes is probably going to be more acurate than 20 minutes would be if you don’t want to do the full 3K.
Does this mean you guys are all swimming at a 10min/1000 yard pace? Not bad.
We used to do 3K for time and figure from there. I’d say 30 minutes is probably going to be more acurate than 20 minutes would be if you don’t want to do the full 3K.
Does this mean you guys are all swimming at a 10min/1000 yard pace? Not bad.
I was thinking that 10:00/1k is a bit slow for ST…
John
For most triathletes I prefer using a 1,000 or even 500 yard/meter swim. The 20-30 minute or 3k tests are good for experienced swimmers who are also in good current shape. Triathletes swimming 8-10k a week (or newer swimmers) are going to be better off using a shorter test and then basing their main sets (1000 for beginners to 2500 yards for more experienced) off of the results. For example,
1000 yard tt average pace 1:25
Main set (threshold/hard set): 12 x 100 on 1:35 interval
the same triathlete swimmer doing a 30 minute test is probably going to wind up with an average pace of 1:30 or higher which would result in an easier threshold set pace (like 1:40) which defeats the purpose of that sort of test, the idea of threshold swim training is to swim at T pace or faster with short amounts of rest.
the same triathlete swimmer doing a 30 minute test is probably going to wind up with an average pace of 1:30 or higher which would result in an easier threshold set pace (like 1:40) which defeats the purpose of that sort of test
Good point, however seems to me that the race T pace for many triathletes needs to be held over 20+ minutes of swimming (anything greater than sprint distance), so goal for most should be to decrease their racing time over these distances, hence a 20 min or longer TT is probably the optimal way to establish race specific fitness and goal should be to increase pace over these longer distances, rather than 500 - 1000 yrds/meters. If I’m doing threshold intervals at a pace faster than I can hold for my race distance, is this optimal training for these longer distances?
the same triathlete swimmer doing a 30 minute test is probably going to wind up with an average pace of 1:30 or higher which would result in an easier threshold set pace (like 1:40) which defeats the purpose of that sort of test, the idea of threshold swim training is to swim at T pace or faster with short amounts of rest.
I’d say that’s exactly the purpose. The tests you propose sound like they’re in the 10-15min range, which would result in paces in excess of threshold. For comparison, most coaches wouldn’t call a 7-10k bike or a 3-4k run (for an average age group male) a threshold test.
Actually I would take the position that most triathletes are completely incapable of holding anything resembling real threshold pace in their swim due to lack of adequate swim training and lousy technique. Hence a 10 or 15 minute test is going to tap into a more realistic predictor of their “threshold” effort sans the slowdown they get from form/technique degradation in a longer TT.
See my other response regarding form/technique.
Edit: I am talking about the 95% of the tri population that trains 10+/- hours or so a week, not top AGers or professionals.
But threshold Vo2 max are not distance dependent but time dependent. ie a 45min test is a much better predictor then a 10-15min test of true threshold.
If your going to see what someone’s threshold is wouldn’t you want to see what someone’s threshold is? Not what they can do for a vo2 type effort?
I’d not suggest someone go do a 10-15min bike test then extrapolate that to FTP why would I do a 10-15min swim test to do the same?
Additionally a longer test will give you a better real world idea of their true swim time for a race then half the distance testing.
the same triathlete swimmer doing a 30 minute test is probably going to wind up with an average pace of 1:30 or higher which would result in an easier threshold set pace (like 1:40) which defeats the purpose of that sort of test, the idea of threshold swim training is to swim at T pace or faster with short amounts of rest.
I’d say that’s exactly the purpose. The tests you propose sound like they’re in the 10-15min range, which would result in paces in excess of threshold. For comparison, most coaches wouldn’t call a 7-10k bike or a 3-4k run (for an average age group male) a threshold test.
If you have someone that can only run 800 meters without starting to drastically slow down and/or form falls to crap, would you still recommend a 3-4k run as a pace test?
If the person swimming physically can’t do the 30 minute or 3k swim test without completely falling apart, what is the last 10-20 minutes even telling you other than they might not drown?
That’s why most coaches repeat the test every 4-8 weeks, as a reassessment. Even the 3x300 (That I used with some triathletes a few days ago), can tell you a baseline to start from. If you can’t hold a steady pace for 3x300 (Goal is within 10 seconds of each other, one was :30 slower on the second, and 2:15 slower on the third), how are you ever going to even finish a 3k with anything resembling a meaningful number?
John
That’s what we used to use as well - the longer tests - as we were an experienced swim team that was pushing out massive yardage. But I wouldn’t use that for someone that’s not a good swimmer or that’s doing shorter races. What you’re looking for here, in my opinion, is a measuring stick for something to train to - a time to measure against from time to time, yes?
I’m a big fan of 3 - 5 x 100, maximum sustainable effort. Your goal is to get all 3 as fast as possible CONSISTENTLY without falling to shit form-wise. (Meaning #1 should not be :30 faster than #5) You repeat that every 2 - 3 weeks. I’ve seen drastic time improvements on those I’ve worked with. The key is to find that measuring stick (that T-time) and set your workouts from there. You don’t train at that measuring stick - you train at T+5 or T+10. You grade that upwards for distance. You don’t make intervals, you bump that interval a bit, catch some rest and make sure that you’re still actually swimming - not just thrashing.
For those only training for IM, yes, the long stuff becomes way more crucial. But we can still use a 300-500yd swim to predict/analyze where you SHOULD be. You can’t be there, you train more (longer yardage on those T+ times).
For those that only evern do sprints or olys…a half hour TT means very little, other than you can keep swimming for longer than you need to and are most likely going slower than you need to.
Very long response short - you can find the shorter T-time if you’re swimming the shorter distances and use that more effectively. I agree with John.
but you’re making my point. definitions vary, but for argument’s sake, let’s say a ‘threshold’ is a level of effort that can be maintained for 30-60mins. I prefer the longer duration, but there are many approaches that are successfully employed by coaches, and each will result in slightly different paces and blood lactate levels. Contrary to what some people sell, it’s not an exact science.
in the examples you give, the runner and the swimmer can’t maintain the effort for the required duration. Assuming they aren’t injured, the reason is likely that they are going too hard, or to put another way, their effort is well above their threshold; it’s unsustainable. The fact that they can’t complete the test actually provides very important information - specifically that they went too hard and exceeded their threshold.
It’s completely conceivable that a untrained swimmer or runner would have to take breaks during the 20-30 min test. The resulting pace would be a lot closer to their threshold than the results obtained from a shorter continuous test. Whether you actually need to test threshold for the beginner population is a whole other matter - personally, I don’t see the value.
Lots of coaches use lots of different tests which can provide valuable info, but the tests you and martyg recommend will simply result in paces that are in excess of the threshold pace of the athlete. That’s not to say that using 3x300 as a repeatable test won’t let you track changes in fitness over time, just that it won’t be threshold.