I have enjoyed Swim Speed Secrets/Workouts and have felt like I definitely gained some useful knowledge from them. However, I have a question for fishes, hopefully some of you who may be familiar with these books. It is my understanding that the old S-pull has been fairly discredited and that a straight pull has been shown to be generally more efficient/effective. In her books, though, Taormina discusses feeling the water by angling the forearm slightly outward for the catch, then inward for the first part of the pull until the arm roughly passes under the chest, and then outward again as the arm finishes past the torso and waist and exits the water. Her sculling drills emphasize this too, and totally helped me gain feel for the water. This seems to run counter to the concept of a straight pull, though, but is this simply a very fine movement that can be executed within the confines of a straight pull? It’s very difficult for me to implement these forearm angle shifts during the course of my pull and not feel as though it is clearly becoming an S-type pull. Also, if this is how you fishes feel the water, roughly what forearm angles do you go between? Taormina mentions a 45 degree angle for both outward or inward, but I think that was more related to sculling drills, I’m not sure what would be right for the actual freestyle stroke. Thanks-
I have her book at home. I’ll have to look at it again to see if there is any other context…
I often contradict myself teaching this aspect. One study showed that a hand creates the same propulsive drag. I teach to pull in a straight line but also teach culling drills. ???
From watching underwater video most people’s hands do alter the angle of attack even as they feel they are pulling straight. So sculling drills appear to improve straight line pulling.
The question I can’t answer with certainty is why.
Perhaps Gary hall sr will have a better explanation.
I think it depends on your vantage point. The hand should move straight back looking up from the bottom of the pool. But since your body is rotating, there is an out & in pattern with respect to the body. Even shoulder driven swimmers rotate their bodies a little, this pattern would be more extreme in a hip driven swimmer with a lot of body roll.
In Swim Speed Secrets, she seems to be arguing for a kind of intermediate view: the exaggerated old-fashioned S stroke is out, but the pull isn’t really straight back either but includes some diagonal components.
BTW, I’m trying to retool my stroke based on that book, and I think I’m making some real progress. But that initial high-elbow position, with fingertips pointed toward the bottom of the pool, seems to be physically unattainable for me. The closest I can come is with a high elbow and the fingertips pointing at about 45% (i.e., left fingers point to the right and vice versa). At least it’s helping me get away from a straight-arm pull.
Turning screws said it, from an outside vantage point it looks like an s curve if you are doing proper body rotation. Many people confuse pulling straight back with holding a steady body position so that can actually be achieved. But in reality you are changing the pitch and angle of the hand because of the rotation of the body, which is why s curve was taught for so long. It “appears” to be s curve, but in your brain it is pull straight back. I know, all sounds confusing, what you visualize and what others see can very often seem at odds, while being the same. Just have to separate them out and have a 2nd non biased opinion. Could be a knowledgable coach or a video with the proper angles.
Turning screws said it, from an outside vantage point it looks like an s curve if you are doing proper body rotation. Many people confuse pulling straight back with holding a steady body position so that can actually be achieved. But in reality you are changing the pitch and angle of the hand because of the rotation of the body, which is why s curve was taught for so long. It “appears” to be s curve, but in your brain it is pull straight back. I know, all sounds confusing, what you visualize and what others see can very often seem at odds, while being the same. Just have to separate them out and have a 2nd non biased opinion. Could be a knowledgable coach or a video with the proper angles.
I agree. The hands also control steering and rotation, so there should always be a scull, or s stroke.
Here’s Phelps in slow mo showing the curve…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuRLkXB2IBE&index=35&list=FLFiwTSfJaEPhSeK6saJh8Aw
I’m not a fish but I did read that book closely and have been trying to tune my ‘straight pull’ for quite awhile now.
I’m fairly certain that all those angles she’s talking about are required just to get that straight line pull, because of the rotation of the body as well as the angulation of the arm. While it sounds like it should be as easy as stick your hand in perpendicular, pull back straight as possible, it absolutely doesn’t play out like that.
I also have a Vasa swim trainer where you can use the cables as a guide to a straight pull (very helpful,imo) and it really shows how complex the pull can be, with various angles, and a transition to the front-quadrant pull portion to more of a push type motion as the hand goes back.
And I still continue to be horrified at how not-straight my allegedly straight-line pull is after I video myself in the water.
I’m glad you posted this question, since I’ve been trying to figure out the same issue from her book and videos. I have found that I can’t consciously do the high elbow and then change the hand pitch to do the diagonal phase: in my mind I have to do one pull straight back. Now, I’m also realizing that I might be swimming too flat, withough enough rotation (although here, I hear what seems like contradictory advise: rotation is helpful or you shouldn’t rotate so much since it’s wasted energy). I’m going to start incorporating slightly more rotation and see if that makes a difference in the way I pull - as others have mentioned, the change in hand pitch might happen as a by-product of rotation.
Turning screws said it, from an outside vantage point it looks like an s curve if you are doing proper body rotation. Many people confuse pulling straight back with holding a steady body position so that can actually be achieved. But in reality you are changing the pitch and angle of the hand because of the rotation of the body, which is why s curve was taught for so long. It “appears” to be s curve, but in your brain it is pull straight back. I know, all sounds confusing, what you visualize and what others see can very often seem at odds, while being the same. Just have to separate them out and have a 2nd non biased opinion. Could be a knowledgable coach or a video with the proper angles.
I agree. The hands also control steering and rotation, so there should always be a scull, or s stroke.
Here’s Phelps in slow mo showing the curve…
https://www.youtube.com/...wTSfJaEPhSeK6saJh8Aw
Nice video showing the curve plus showing that he stretches each arm absolutely all the way out until the elbow is straight before starting his pull. As you and many other excellent swimmers have said, this is a “stretching out”, NOT a “glide”. Also, at the start when he’s swimming easy and the view is from above, he’s only taking around 48 spm. On the current “pool vs OW” technique thread, someone suggested that a spm of around 45 would indicate that something is “seriously wrong”. Ummm, I think not:)
This Phelps video shows a multi-angle view of all of this, which is quite cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo2sNuxOlYQ&list=FLFiwTSfJaEPhSeK6saJh8Aw
that was probably me, but a) Phelps isn’t exactly average, and b) his stroke rate goes up substantially at race pace. I was talking about rate in context of race pace, drawing on the research that Russell Mark did.
When I’m warming up, my stroke rate probably starts off at about 30 or 40. I don’t pay attention to stroke rate though. DPS is more important.
that was probably me, but a) Phelps isn’t exactly average, and b) his stroke rate goes up substantially at race pace. I was talking about rate in context of race pace, drawing on the research that Russell Mark did.
When I’m warming up, my stroke rate probably starts off at about 30 or 40. I don’t pay attention to stroke rate though. DPS is more important.
Na, it wasn’t you, it was fisherman-something. And ya, obv MP is very far from average. I don’t ever pay attention to stroke rate either, just spl and even that is really just for curiosity’s sake:)
Plenty of people have swum the 1500 in <17 minutes with the ‘bad’ pull. It is still very good. If you feel that it works way better for you, use it.
Plenty of people have swum the 1500 in <17 minutes with the ‘bad’ pull. It is still very good. If you feel that it works way better for you, use it.
Well, in summary, I think the real answer is that no one really pulls straight back because the water shifts as you pull on it. It feels like you’re pulling straight back but, as shown in the MP video, that is not actually the case.
The insweep is pretty common, even in a “straight” pull. partly because of anatomy. I think you just generate more power close to the body than further away.
I take the “straight” pull to really refer to the front of the stroke. Under the S pull, the classically taught method was to enter thumb down and press outward on the downsweep. the straight pull is middle finger first and no outsweep.
interestingly enough, the really fast people never did much of an outsweep.
Turning screws said it, from an outside vantage point it looks like an s curve if you are doing proper body rotation. Many people confuse pulling straight back with holding a steady body position so that can actually be achieved. But in reality you are changing the pitch and angle of the hand because of the rotation of the body, which is why s curve was taught for so long. It “appears” to be s curve, but in your brain it is pull straight back. I know, all sounds confusing, what you visualize and what others see can very often seem at odds, while being the same. Just have to separate them out and have a 2nd non biased opinion. Could be a knowledgable coach or a video with the proper angles.
I agree. The hands also control steering and rotation, so there should always be a scull, or s stroke.
Here’s Phelps in slow mo showing the curve…
https://www.youtube.com/...wTSfJaEPhSeK6saJh8Aw
Nice video showing the curve plus showing that he stretches each arm absolutely all the way out until the elbow is straight before starting his pull. As you and many other excellent swimmers have said, this is a “stretching out”, NOT a “glide”. Also, at the start when he’s swimming easy and the view is from above, he’s only taking around 48 spm. On the current “pool vs OW” technique thread, someone suggested that a spm of around 45 would indicate that something is “seriously wrong”. Ummm, I think not:)
This Phelps video shows a multi-angle view of all of this, which is quite cool:
https://www.youtube.com/...wTSfJaEPhSeK6saJh8Aw
You know, that (bolded) can be really hard to explain to people…the near hyperextension of the shoulder. I tell people to reach to the point that it seems like they are going to take their shoulder out of socket, but it’s really hard for people to get that. Of course this is a big flexibility issue too, which most newer swimmers don’t have.
tj
Turning screws said it, from an outside vantage point it looks like an s curve if you are doing proper body rotation. Many people confuse pulling straight back with holding a steady body position so that can actually be achieved. But in reality you are changing the pitch and angle of the hand because of the rotation of the body, which is why s curve was taught for so long. It “appears” to be s curve, but in your brain it is pull straight back. I know, all sounds confusing, what you visualize and what others see can very often seem at odds, while being the same. Just have to separate them out and have a 2nd non biased opinion. Could be a knowledgable coach or a video with the proper angles.
I agree. The hands also control steering and rotation, so there should always be a scull, or s stroke.
Here’s Phelps in slow mo showing the curve…
https://www.youtube.com/...wTSfJaEPhSeK6saJh8Aw
Nice video showing the curve plus showing that he stretches each arm absolutely all the way out until the elbow is straight before starting his pull. As you and many other excellent swimmers have said, this is a “stretching out”, NOT a “glide”. Also, at the start when he’s swimming easy and the view is from above, he’s only taking around 48 spm. On the current “pool vs OW” technique thread, someone suggested that a spm of around 45 would indicate that something is “seriously wrong”. Ummm, I think not:)
This Phelps video shows a multi-angle view of all of this, which is quite cool:
https://www.youtube.com/...wTSfJaEPhSeK6saJh8Aw
You know, that (bolded) can be really hard to explain to people…the near hyper-extension of the shoulder. I tell people to reach to the point that it seems like they are going to take their shoulder out of socket, but it’s really hard for people to get that. Of course this is a big flexibility issue too, which most newer swimmers don’t have. tj
That’s a great way to put it!!! I also think that the “not stretching their arms out enough” problem is part of why so many new swimmers’ legs drop, since the stretching the arms way out tends to cause the legs to float up. This is most easily demonstrated by kicking on the back with the arms in the streamline vs with the arms at the side: for me my legs just pop right up to the surface with the arms in streamline whereas when I keep them to my sides my body is lower in the water. If I take one arm out of the streamline, say to scratch my nose or something, then I tend to sink lower, but then come right back up when full streamline is reattained. Also, the harder you pull, the higher you ride in the water, which can be done even if one does not have super flex ankles and a super strong kick like MP:)
At least you have the courage to video yourself. 
I’m still working up to that point.
Great video link, and thanks for the thoughts. I’ve read a lot of your posts (as well as several other posters from this thread, Jason, monty, etc - nice to have a lot of serious swimmers chime in!), and enjoyed getting the education. Much appreciated!
At least you have the courage to video yourself. I’m still working up to that point.
I’d highly recommend doing it. Mine is a low-budget system - I use my smartphone’s camera and I bought a $15 waterproof sleeve made specifically for photography with the smartphone camera - you can still manipulate the screen through the plastic sleeve cover as long as you’re not underwater at the time.
Was pretty shocking to do the frame by frame against Mr Smooth and see how errant parts of my stroke were. In realtime, it doesn’t look that bad at all, but if you do the frame by frame, you start seeing some really wacky things you never knew you were doing!