Swim improvement after 50?

Triathlon Forum
1

I know some varient of this topic has been tossed around a bunch of times, but I’m wondering if there is anyway, after 27 years of training and competing, I can make a substantial improvement in my swim. I can bike right at an hour for 40K bike split (on a nice flat course like Chicago) and my 10K run is somewhere in the 6:40/mi to 7:00/mi range these days - but my swimming still sucks after all these years. I did 27:30 1500M in a wetsuit at Nationals. In the pool, when I’m in top shape I can swim 400Yds at 1:30/100 pace. If I do a big swim emphasis during the winter, swimming 15,000 yds/week for a couple months, I can maybe do 500yds at 1:30/100 pace.

I’ve been on master’s teams for years (don’t swim with them much these days however).
I’ve had plenty of swim coaches make suggestions over the years (sometimes conflicting information I might add) tweaking this or that.
I tried a Total Immersion weekend a few years ago.
I lift weights all winter, every winter.
You’d think if there was some magical, little thing I was doing wrong with my body position or stroke mechanics, I would have stumbled upon it by now.

I’m 6’ and 150lbs, and have long thin arms and I think my shoulders must be very weak.

I have a son who is built exactly the same as me and he took up competitive swimming in middle school and high school. He can do 500 yards in a little over 5 minutes (pisses me off a little). Of course, they swim a bunch of yards in high school programs, but I’m wondering if I tried something like that at my age - have I missed the window of opportunity for my body to adapt and get a bunch faster?

Anyone want a tough coaching job? Improve a seasoned 54 year old triathlete’s 100/yd swim pace by 10 sec per 100??

2

Swim a lot and swim hard. 15k isn’t really that much, try to get in 6 days a week for at least an hour, shoot for at least 20k hopefully closer to 30k. Workouts should be something like 500-1000 warmup/drill work 2000-3000 at threshold and 500ish cooldown. During the threshold you should have your heart rate up most of the time, should be like doing a set of 3X20 on the bike. If your stroke starts to fall apart kick a 200 and then get back into your set. Is it possible to improve at 50? yes. But I see far too many people complain about not getting faster and all they’re doing is floating back and forth, you have to swim lots, and swim hard.

3

Ok, first my credentials. I just finished two races, Lake Stevens 70.3 and the Vineman Aquabike. I was 2nd out of the water in the 50-54 AG at Lake Stevens and 3rd at the Vineman Aquabike. Both of those swims were done in <30min with a full wetsuit. I am 52 yo. I have been swimming all my life and was a swim instructor and lifeguard in my teenage years, long long ago. I’m 5’11" and weigh about 145#.

You do not mention how your workouts are structured. Do you do any technique drills during your workouts, i.e. sculling, single arm swim etc.? Most people I see do some kind of technique drills, myself included (although a disclaimer here, I myself don’t do a lot of these drills). For many swimmers, these drills should be included in all workouts. Try looking at the Swim Smooth series. They have some really good drills to work on. I live in Perth, Australia most of the year and have worked out with the Swim Smooth coach here, Paul Newsome. Really solid guy. He’s actually attempting an English Channel crossing tomorrow, September 5.

I do all my swim training alone, typically 3-5x per week. Between 2-3km per session. At least one session is a long, continuous swim. Another is a set of long cruise intervals, i.e. 4x400’s or 8x200’s with 20s rest interval on the 400’s and 10s on the 200’s. Another session is short fast sprints, 100’s down to 25’s. I weight train as well with a big emphasis on shoulder routines.

IMO, swim technique goes downhill faster than either run or bike technique for many people. You need to swim YEAR ROUND. Even after 1-2 weeks away, I notice a big difference.

There is no magic formula and some people, my wife included, never do get any better and struggle swimming.

You’ll probably get some responses here which tell you to practice breathing bilaterally. While that is a good thing to do, I see VERY FEW people actually do this in races. There will be other ideas. Don’t lose heart. I wish I could come close to you on the bike and run. If you were to look me up at the two races I just mentioned, I am a MOPer - BOPer in the other two disciplines. Maybe you can give me some pointers…

4

You do not mention how your workouts are structured. Do you do any technique drills during your workouts, i.e. sculling, single arm swim etc.? Most people I see do some kind of technique drills, myself included (although a disclaimer here, I myself don’t do a lot of these drills). For many swimmers, these drills should be included in all workouts. Try looking at the Swim Smooth series. They have some really good drills to work on. I live in Perth, Australia most of the year and have worked out with the Swim Smooth coach here, Paul Newsome. Really solid guy. He’s actually attempting an English Channel crossing tomorrow, September 5.

I do all my swim training alone, typically 3-5x per week. Between 2-3km per session. At least one session is a long, continuous swim. Another is a set of long cruise intervals, i.e. 4x400’s or 8x200’s with 20s rest interval on the 400’s and 10s on the 200’s. Another session is short fast sprints, 100’s down to 25’s. I weight train as well with a big emphasis on shoulder routines.

IMO, swim technique goes downhill faster than either run or bike technique for many people. You need to swim YEAR ROUND. Even after 1-2 weeks away, I notice a big difference.

There is no magic formula and some people, my wife included, never do get any better and struggle swimming.

You’ll probably get some responses here which tell you to practice breathing bilaterally. While that is a good thing to do, I see VERY FEW people actually do this in races. There will be other ideas. Don’t lose heart. I wish I could come close to you on the bike and run. If you were to look me up at the two races I just mentioned, I am a MOPer - BOPer in the other two disciplines. Maybe you can give me some pointers…

In 27 years, I’m sure I’ve done about every drill and every type of workout. The masters team workouts are certainly the best for intensity and to have big yardage workouts, but these days I’ve let up on meeting on their schedule and found I can swim more often when I squeeze them in my own time.

I think I am swimming about the same as you. I do swim year around (I normally don’t lift weights much in the summer). So, I don’t think I’m going to get a big breakthrough emulating someone who is already a good swimmer (you for instance). My son, now in college, does not swim at all, and I’m sure he could kick my butt at any distance in the pool. As tempting as it is, I don’t think I’ll emulate his training : )

If my lack of speed was due to some subtle technique, I think some masters coach would have figured it out by now.

5

Swim a lot and swim hard. 15k isn’t really that much, try to get in 6 days a week for at least an hour, shoot for at least 20k hopefully closer to 30k. Workouts should be something like 500-1000 warmup/drill work 2000-3000 at threshold and 500ish cooldown. During the threshold you should have your heart rate up most of the time, should be like doing a set of 3X20 on the bike. If your stroke starts to fall apart kick a 200 and then get back into your set. Is it possible to improve at 50? yes. But I see far too many people complain about not getting faster and all they’re doing is floating back and forth, you have to swim lots, and swim hard.

I’m thinking you might have the answer. At least I’m willing to give it a try for a couple months and see if I’m getting anywhere. The good news is I have a fairly easy time getting to a pool. I teach at a high school and can get in before school for maybe an hour. I can get in on my prep period for about 45 minutes and I can get in after school and swim with the high school swim team if I want. And/or I could hit a masters group before work a couple mornings a week and again on Saturday mornings.

You think swimming twice a day, around 2500 yards each would be as good as the bigger workout you describe??

6

It might be even better, just split the numbers in half, so 500ish warmup, 1500 hard and 500 other stuff. Spitting the workout will effectively give you a whole bunch more recovery between hard efforts, so you can go harder in those hard efforts.

7

Swim a lot and swim hard. 15k isn’t really that much, try to get in 6 days a week for at least an hour, shoot for at least 20k hopefully closer to 30k. Workouts should be something like 500-1000 warmup/drill work 2000-3000 at threshold and 500ish cooldown. During the threshold you should have your heart rate up most of the time, should be like doing a set of 3X20 on the bike. If your stroke starts to fall apart kick a 200 and then get back into your set. Is it possible to improve at 50? yes. But I see far too many people complain about not getting faster and all they’re doing is floating back and forth, you have to swim lots, and swim hard.

I’m thinking you might have the answer. At least I’m willing to give it a try for a couple months and see if I’m getting anywhere. The good news is I have a fairly easy time getting to a pool. I teach at a high school and can get in before school for maybe an hour. I can get in on my prep period for about 45 minutes and I can get in after school and swim with the high school swim team if I want. And/or I could hit a masters group before work a couple mornings a week and again on Saturday mornings.

You think swimming twice a day, around 2500 yards each would be as good as the bigger workout you describe??

I’m now 53, and I haven’t been beaten onto the bike by someone in my age group in maybe a decade (mostly sprints and Olympics, but including a couple of Eagleman races and a Timberman). I started swimming at age 26. I have never done more than about 20,000yds in a week, even when I was doing only masters swimming. I think I did 6,000yds in a workout once, and more than 5,000 less than a dozen times. I don’t think it matters how much you swim, as long as you swim with good frequency and consistency. I also haven’t lifted in fifteen years or so, since strength is not a limiter in endurance swimming.

What matters, as has been indicated, is what you do in the pool. What worked for me is that I swam in the same lane as a bunch of guys who were much faster than me, and all of whom were ex-collegiate swimmers (and current beer drinkers). We did sets that I couldn’t do. But I did them. I had to swim as hard as I could to not get lapped (much). I had to sit out a 50 every once in a while (and get yelled at), then get back in and kill myself. How many times have you found you couldn’t get your arms up to wash your hair after swimming? When you have to swim fast, you figure out what to do to go fast. Swim fast or die, or swim fast *and *die.

One other thing: it’s called swim *practice *for a reason: every stroke you take should be practicing correct technique. Be aware of what you are doing every stroke: if you do something wrong, correct it the very next stroke.

8

I think the folks above it have hit it on the head with volume, structure, intensity. And for most, it’s going to be difficult to hit the kind of intensity needed by yourself. Barfing, crying, and/or quitting should seem like good options at least once per workout … :wink: and wondering how you’re going to lift your arms to the steering wheel afterward, never mind shampooing your head … the great thing is you do recover faster from swim than bike or run, so you can do it all over again the next day!

Because the swim is relatively shorter to the other legs of a tri, people sometimes get deluded into thinking they don’t need to put the kind of work into the swim as bike and run. But the single sports don’t know that. You’ve got to put into the swim at least (more if you need even minor technique work) what you’ve put into the bike over the years, and way more than the run, because with the swim, you can.

For most triathletes, it isn’t worth it. But you sound like you have the time and desire. Good luck.

9

Geoff, if you haven’t tried finding freestyle yet give it a try in addition to the other suggestions. I am in same boat as you, swam with same masters group for years and never saw much improvement, did a TI course etc. But doing the FF 12 week workouts, 2-3 times a week at most , went from 4:30 for 300tt. In week 1 to 3:57 in week 12, still not fast but as fast as I have gone in a long time at age 49. Kick timing is something none of the masters coaches ever mentioned but from my experience seems to be the " thing" that helped me most.

10

Geoff, if you haven’t tried finding freestyle yet give it a try in addition to the other suggestions. I am in same boat as you, swam with same masters group for years and never saw much improvement, did a TI course etc. But doing the FF 12 week workouts, 2-3 times a week at most , went from 4:30 for 300tt. In week 1 to 3:57 in week 12, still not fast but as fast as I have gone in a long time at age 49. Kick timing is something none of the masters coaches ever mentioned but from my experience seems to be the " thing" that helped me most.

X’s 2.

11

Geoff, if you haven’t tried finding freestyle yet give it a try in addition to the other suggestions. I am in same boat as you, swam with same masters group for years and never saw much improvement, did a TI course etc. But doing the FF 12 week workouts, 2-3 times a week at most , went from 4:30 for 300tt. In week 1 to 3:57 in week 12, still not fast but as fast as I have gone in a long time at age 49. Kick timing is something none of the masters coaches ever mentioned but from my experience seems to be the " thing" that helped me most.

I’ll have to check it out. I just Googled the website. Thanks.

12

Geoff, if you haven’t tried finding freestyle yet give it a try in addition to the other suggestions. I am in same boat as you, swam with same masters group for years and never saw much improvement, did a TI course etc. But doing the FF 12 week workouts, 2-3 times a week at most , went from 4:30 for 300tt. In week 1 to 3:57 in week 12, still not fast but as fast as I have gone in a long time at age 49. Kick timing is something none of the masters coaches ever mentioned but from my experience seems to be the " thing" that helped me most.

What’s so special about the Finding Freestyle workouts? Curious, as the OP seems to be swimming a decent amount already, and I agree probably has done all the drills.

13

Your 400 times don’t seem to match up to your 27:30 1500. Even without getting faster in the pool, it seems you should be closer to 23:00 in the open water. How much open water wetsuit swimming do you do?

14

Your 400 times don’t seem to match up to your 27:30 1500. Even without getting faster in the pool, it seems you should be closer to 23:00 in the open water. How much open water wetsuit swimming do you do?

400 yards at 1:30 pace
1650 yards in open water, in a crowded zigzag course, with a wetsuit at 1:40 pace.

You think my open water swim should be faster?

15

Can’t speak for you, but a wetsuit is good for 10 secs per 100 for me.

16

Is nothing special about it, they just focus on things that I had never focused on in over 10 years of masters workouts and weekend TI workshop. I have typical horrible kick secondary to poor flexibility but their focus seemed to be more on proper timing of kick and in my n= 1 experience this seemed to click.

17

Your 400 times don’t seem to match up to your 27:30 1500. Even without getting faster in the pool, it seems you should be closer to 23:00 in the open water. How much open water wetsuit swimming do you do?

400 yards at 1:30 pace
1650 yards in open water, in a crowded zigzag course, with a wetsuit at 1:40 pace.

You think my open water swim should be faster?

Do you hold a steady pace for that 400y at 1:30 or are you fading fast at the end? The reason I ask is that a 400y test is not long enough for endurance pace testing. What can you swim a straight 1,500 or 2,000y in without grinding to a halt at the end?

The wetsuit should give you 10sec per 100. If you are a competent open water swimmer then your race swim time should be as fast or faster then your best pool times if the conditions are reasonable. That is taking current, chop, bodies into account.

People that come to swimming late and become fast swimmers have either :

  1. The ability to visualize, feel and integrate movement patterns in an unnatural setting (excellent mind body motor pattern connection)
  2. The determination to learn to become fast by simple repetition ie swimming hundreds of thousands of yards and learning to find the fastest way through he water.

You really want to be number 1 (above) because number 2 is like going to the salt mines everyday. Very, very few people are prepared to do that.

18

"Do you hold a steady pace for that 400y at 1:30 or are you fading fast at the end? The reason I ask is that a 400y test is not long enough for endurance pace testing. What can you swim a straight 1,500 or 2,000y in without grinding to a halt at the end?

The wetsuit should give you 10sec per 100. If you are a competent open water swimmer then your race swim time should be as fast or faster then your best pool times if the conditions are reasonable. That is taking current, chop, bodies into account."

I’m holding steady for the 400, but it’s absolutely all out. Much harder pace than I could do for 1650.

I agree a wetsuit gives me at least 10 sec per 100, but for the same distance. In other words, a wetsuit would make my 400 more like 1:20 pace. But that doesn’t mean my wetsuit clad 1650 will be 1:20 pace.

19

I agree a wetsuit gives me at least 10 sec per 100, but for the same distance. In other words, a wetsuit would make my 400 more like 1:20 pace. But that doesn’t mean my wetsuit clad 1650 will be 1:20 pace.

You should re-read what I wrote. Your 400y test is TOO short to compare to your race distance time that is why I suggested 1,500 to 2,000y. Your long distance, pool sustainable pace, may be more like 1:40 meaning that if you put a wetsuit on you should be at +/-1:30ish.

20

I agree a wetsuit gives me at least 10 sec per 100, but for the same distance. In other words, a wetsuit would make my 400 more like 1:20 pace. But that doesn’t mean my wetsuit clad 1650 will be 1:20 pace.

You should re-read what I wrote. Your 400y test is TOO short to compare to your race distance time that is why I suggested 1,500 to 2,000y. Your long distance, pool sustainable pace, may be more like 1:40 meaning that if you put a wetsuit on you should be at +/-1:30ish.

I was thinking you were the same poster as SDMIKE. He thinks that I should be going 1:23 pace/100 for an open water 1650 based on my 400 pool TT. That seems a bit of a stretch to me.