Swim Form Help (after 7 months of 3x week swimming)

Triathlon Forum
1

Hey guys, I’ve been trying to improve my swim (I started from zero last November), and this is my starting point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNub_LtkYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWDD4yC39F4

My pace has improved from a 2:45/100yd to about a 2:00/100y. I did a 400yd TT and I did in 7:45, so about 1:56/100yd pace.

I have a Triathlon coach that has been helping me, but I find it great when I can get more people’s opinion on what I’m doing wrong/right, and how I can continue to improve. My goal is to one day swim 1:30 as my race pace.

This is my now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_QMy-nRLmw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw6Kf_ZYnZ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV681YhZih8

Things I have noticed:

My left arm is crossing my center line after it enters the water in front of me. My right arm is pulling very strangely. I captured this sequence of images: http://imgur.com/a/1XgECFrom previous sequence of images, I can see I’m ending my breath late, as my head rotates back together with my right arm, and I’ve seen videos that mention that head should be back down before my hand crosses my face during recovery.
I feel like I am still doing many things wrong. Can you guys help?

2

Until you figure out how to float, nothing else matters. Do you see how you are swimming uphill?

I am going to get killed for this but IDGAF.

  1. Go buy a copy of Total Immersion.
  2. Learn proper body position in the water using the drillsin the book.
  3. Throw Total Immersion Book away.
  4. Join a Master’s club.
3

You’ve come a long way for sure, but I agree with the other poster - you need to fix your body position. This is way more important than the three problems you listed. I think you’ll see huge gains once you can get your hips riding high in the water. Also, don’t bend your knees so much when you kick - it’s dragging you down.

I’m not familiar with Total Immersion. A pool buoy or the Roka sim shorts (or something similar) might help you understand what a good body position feels like. Then ditch them before they become a crutch.

4

Until you figure out how to float, nothing else matters. Do you see how you are swimming uphill?

I am going to get killed for this but IDGAF.

  1. Go buy a copy of Total Immersion.
  2. Learn proper body position in the water using the drillsin the book.
  3. Throw Total Immersion Book away.
  4. Join a Master’s club.

Is it possible to be fully horizontal at my slow 2:00/100yd pace?

My hips use to be lower, but I still have a long way to go. I will look into Total Immersion.

5

Also agreed on looking at something like Total Immersion/addressing body position.

It’s more your ability to hold yourself in water than your speed (i.e. even at 2m/100yd pace you want to be able to keep yourself horizontal), and if you can keep from having to swim uphill you’ll find that the work you’re doing to swim that 2m/100yd pace gets you across the pool quicker.

Really, the other stuff (the timing of breathing, arm motion) is easier to address once your body is in a good position (and some of it is likely symptomatic of – and compensation for – having to drag your legs around the pool).

Keep at it-

6

Probably the biggest reason your legs are low is because you’re holding your head pretty high. It also looks like you’re lifting your head when you breathe…remember, one goggle in and one goggle out when breathing.

7

Probably the biggest reason your legs are low is because you’re holding your head pretty high. It also looks like you’re lifting your head when you breathe…remember, one goggle in and one goggle out when breathing.

Should my head be fully submerged when I’m looking down?

8

3x week isn’t enough to make improvements in your stroke. It’ll be really tough to make meaningfully changes in your stroke technique swimming at 2:00/100 pace. Congratulations on the improvement you’ve made, but you should increase your swimming to 5x a week with 3 of those days being hard, fast swims. The other two can be short and easy. You’ll see a drop in your pacing within the first couple of weeks.

If you have any questions, let me know.

Tim

9

Probably the biggest reason your legs are low is because you’re holding your head pretty high. It also looks like you’re lifting your head when you breathe…remember, one goggle in and one goggle out when breathing.

Should my head be fully submerged when I’m looking down?

No, you want your face looking down and slightly forward with the water line, i.e. the water surface, hitting you roughly in the middle of your forehead; you should be able to feel where the water is hitting you on your head if you focus on it. The “one goggle in, one goggle out when breathing” means that, when you turn your head to breath, your lower eye can see under the surface while your upper eye looks across the water surface. This technique is not only beneficial for efficient breathing but allows you to scope out the hotties in the pool as well as lying by the pool or walking by the pool. If you spy a hottie on the side of the pool, next breath let both eyes come out of the water to get a better look. Soon you’ll be a master of head position control and scoping the hotties while appearing to be simply swimming. :slight_smile:

10
  1. Dropped elbows.
  2. Kicking from the knees and not the hips/core.
  3. Kick is not compact at all. Your feet are creating more drag somehow.

If you want to get to 1:30/100 you need to train like a 10 year old swimmer. My 9 year old swims 4 to 5x per week and swam 3:45 for 200 Free (metres)… he was 11th in 9-10 boys at the meet.

11

If you improve as much in the next 7 months as you have in the first 7, you will be almost there. You have gone from 2:45 to 1:56’ish, which if you did a reasonable turn (not even a flip, just a good turn), would actually be even better than 1:56. You already have an improvement of close to a minute per 100, you don’t have far to go, although the closer you get the harder the incremental improvement becomes. But keep doing whatever you are doing.

Yes there are still lots of things wrong, but nothing your coach isn’t probably already telling you.

I believe, the biggest thing any adult learner has to develop is the ability to relax in the water. This is what children learn above all other things, to make the movement relaxed and second nature. Watch anyone who has trained for years in anything from sport to dancing and what you notice is how easy they make it look and how much time they appear to have to make the movement. This is what you don’t have, yet.

My own suggestion for improvement, beyond the obvious things, would be to train in other strokes. When you do that you develop the ability to consciously monitor your movement and understand the strokes. That alone will change your stroke and understanding of what is happening in the water. Swimming of all three disciples is the most reliant on form.

12

Work on your body position first(float). Head down and hips up. Keep your legs closer together. Turn your body/head to breathe, don’t lift.

13

Until you figure out how to float, nothing else matters. Do you see how you are swimming uphill?

I am going to get killed for this but IDGAF.

  1. Go buy a copy of Total Immersion.
  2. Learn proper body position in the water using the drills in the book.
  3. Throw Total Immersion Book away.
  4. Join a Master’s club.

I’d certainly agree with your assessment. I am not sure any program properly teaches someone how to float though. It’s kinda stupid that way.

I am working on a drill called “drilling to the bottom” which means getting the chest down and hips and legs to the surface. Just as you would when you swim to the bottom of the pool, there is no question your legs, hips are higher than your head and chest.

The whole problem with new swimmers our instinct to breathe, and to keep the head and shoulders high at all costs. It’s actually by sinking your head and shoulders, tucking in your core (mini pike position), you can create that level attitude or posture needed for speed.

<https://youtu.be/cFK23zl7b8A

14

Getting your legs (not just your hips) higher in the water:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

It’s no joke. There’ve been any number of people on ST who swear by the simple concept described therein.

Also, at least your left hand appears to finish by coming straight up out of the water, without any horizontal (push) component whatsoever, so you are not getting anything out of the last significant part of your stroke.

15

i work on that with a swim snorkel. I will overcompensate by pressing most of my head underwater. I think this is beyond the ability level of the OP currently.

Until you figure out how to float, nothing else matters. Do you see how you are swimming uphill?

I am going to get killed for this but IDGAF.

  1. Go buy a copy of Total Immersion.
  2. Learn proper body position in the water using the drills in the book.
  3. Throw Total Immersion Book away.
  4. Join a Master’s club.

I’d certainly agree with your assessment. I am not sure any program properly teaches someone how to float though. It’s kinda stupid that way.

I am working on a drill called “drilling to the bottom” which means getting the chest down and hips and legs to the surface. Just as you would when you swim to the bottom of the pool, there is no question your legs, hips are higher than your head and chest.

The whole problem with new swimmers our instinct to breathe, and to keep the head and shoulders high at all costs. It’s actually by sinking your head and shoulders, tucking in your core (mini pike position), you can create that level attitude or posture needed for speed.

<https://youtu.be/cFK23zl7b8A

16

Getting your legs (not just your hips) higher in the water:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

It’s no joke. There’ve been any number of people on ST who swear by the simple concept described therein.

Also, at least your left hand appears to finish by coming straight up out of the water, without any horizontal (push) component whatsoever, so you are not getting anything out of the last significant part of your stroke.

Basically what I said in my video is the above is really BS.

If you have an aligned & level spine, that defines your floating position. Then your arms and legs free-up for propulsion. You can even let your arms hang down a little & if you are “riding your chest” like a mini surfboard, the legs will come to the surface.

No lifting or back engagement (as per the above) is required. The OPPOSITE is true, you need core tension on your front panel (chest, abs, front of pelvis). So more like a front plank or TRX suspended front plank.

And leg-jacked wetsuits, floaty fins, pull bouys (improperly used) etc. are a bad thing for learning this imo.

17

i work on that with a swim snorkel. I will overcompensate by pressing most of my head underwater. I think this is beyond the ability level of the OP currently.

In order to get my back/hips to surface I had to add an extension to my snorkel! That’s how bad a shape I was in.

I think I would introduce a snorkel to the OP, but not necessarily to swim but to position. Snorkels are a challenge in themselves because the nose is open and not everyone can breathe right away.

I would say hang your arms & head down and kick your ass up and float nose down. Then start to introduce some mini-sculls - 1/4 strokes, scooping under the belly like a doggy paddle (which is under-rated)

18

few notes - i wouldn’t say my technique is amazing but i’m a ~1:05/100yd swimmer who grew up swimming competitively…

not enough hip rotation, as you enter the water with your hand you should feel like you’re “stretching” out to touch something just a bit too far awayyou’re not cupping your hands enoughDon’t worry / focus on kicking, focus on your upper body - i would train a lot with a buoy as others mentioned, your body positioning is off - a function of a few things above
I’ve never taught swimming but it is definitely hard to do over the internet / videos
.

19

I’m like a broken record, but only when it applies.

Your current form isn’t so bad. It’s by no means perfect, but it is absolutely NOT the reason you are not swimming 1:30/100 right now. You need to improve your swim power/endurance (by swimming more, harder) and you’ll get there very soon.

Again, I’m not just saying to ignore technique. Not at all! But it is critical that you have to be realistic about the true reasons that you aren’t going as fast as your goal target. All the technique fixes listed above will gain you at MOST 5sec/100, and more likely closer to 2-3 sec/100 (if not less).

Furthermore, as you swim faster and more, you’ll find that you naturally adopt better technique and streamlining patterns in the water as you train the muscles that are required to hold such position to do it better, for longer.

Anyone of these strong fish swimmers above can take a single look at your video and agree that there is just no power in the stroke, and THAT is your primary limiter. To add further evidence - I’m not even remotely a fish being a no-talent adult-onset swimmer that took nearly 2 years to break 2:00/100 for distance, and I have a stroke that looks very similar in quality to yours (meaning plenty of stuff to fix), but I can swim faster than your pace even while wearing both a huge drag belt (literally a pool running belt loose enough to give a parachute effect while swimming) AND a baggy T-shirt AND board shorts, AND while not even going even as hard as race pace (I do this sometimes because the avg speed in a circle swim at lunch here often is 1:50-2:00 pace in the fast lane, yuk!) There is no possible way that your dragging legs are causing even a fraction of the drag of those three things I’m wearing.

So work hard on your propulsion, and keep in mind the helpful technique recs above, but your propulsion gains will be by far the biggest factor that will get you to 1:30 pace, which I think should be eminently doable in your case. You’ll have to swim a lot more than you’re doing right now, and be ready to suffer. A lot.

20

Getting your legs (not just your hips) higher in the water:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

It’s no joke. There’ve been any number of people on ST who swear by the simple concept described therein.

Also, at least your left hand appears to finish by coming straight up out of the water, without any horizontal (push) component whatsoever, so you are not getting anything out of the last significant part of your stroke.

Basically what I said in my video is the above is really BS.

Some comments on this video from a previous thread or two:

Well, I watched that goofy video that was posted here a couple of weeks ago and said what the hell. Makes sense and for once he actually showed what muscles to control to bring the legs up. I’ve been working on it for 2 weeks.

Noticed I felt faster right away. Can actually feel my body change when not engaging the lower back muscles. Can feel my feet break the waters surface when kicking.

As of last night, I have taken 20 seconds off my 300 times. 7 seconds off my 100s, and 4 seconds off my 50s. All without any change to stroke rate.
told ya it works…most people can’t get past the goofy dude and his props. once it clicks it will change the way you swim in a big way. good on you for sticking with it most people only want to look at vids of ian thorpe’s EVF and keep their POS body position/scissor kick/cross over, then sit around and wonder why they are slow as molasses.
That is some of the most useful swimming video that I’ve seen in a looooong time. Must-view video for all the world’s droopy-legged swimmers (and there are a lot of them!)

Major victory today–I saw the light. Kinda. The dorky video got me focused on my core, and after 200 with a pull buoy I engaged my core and kept a steady rhythm, and my pace quickened with much less perceived effort. I could even feel my feet leaving the water on a couple kicks!

I’m still working on lying flat without moving forward, but I hope I get there.

It’s not perfect, but this morning was a major step forward. I’m at least less scared of my next non-wetsuit OWS. Thanks to everyone for the tips.

I can’t thank you enough for that video! I’ve been working for weeks/months on trying to counterbalance and get my legs up, head down, swimming downhill and every now n then I’d feel it but the thought of arching my back to engage those back, glute muscles worked wonders!!!

It’s a lame video but right on!
Wow, this thread got resurrected… I’ve been working on my posture for a few weeks, and I’ve added a lot of pull/kick drills. My posture in the water isn’t perfect, but it’s much better, and I’ve been getting faster despite a DECREASED RPE.

Damn, that goofy dude’s video saved my swim.

And a quote or two from someone whose user name is SharkFM:

just found this video after searching for instruction on this subject on Youtube… then came to ST to see if it’s been discussed.
A video like this speaks to me for sure. It’s awesome.

I went to a different wetsuit today and really felt my legs dragging.

Kicking the legs up is definitely not the answer. Achieving hydrodynamic posture and profile is.

Also explains why beer guts are not a liability in swimming like the blazes. A beer gut moves the center of mass closer the the center of buoyancy. Long legs and a lean body do the opposite.
This was really the missing piece in the swim puzzle for me to putting up some respectable swim numbers. It will take some weeks or months to grove it all in but at least we are on the right track.